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High End Luxury Cars
24723 messages, Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum.- Your Hosts are Kirstie@Edmunds & Karen@Edmunds
What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#2110 of 24723 footie by merc1
Dec 20, 2002 (11:07 pm)
If Mercedes isn't THE technology leader, then they certainly are among the top 2. The other being BMW.Electronics, such as CD changers are hardly "technology" as most people understand the word. It's the brand culture that keeps/kept Mercedes/Porsche and other German makes from installing these things, not that they couldn't. I know you realize that. Lexus doesn't make it's own stereos, neither does Acura. In short if Mercedes felt that these things were so important they would have done it years ago. You have to remember these are German companies and they're still a little stubborn. European companies have never place emphasis on things like stereos, cupholders etc, and it hasn't hurt them nearly as some would like you to believe.
Technology is electro-hydraulic brakes, active suspension, radar-based cruise control, folding hardtops, all of which Mercedes did first, all of which Acura doesn't even offer. Acura only compares to Mercedes in two areas, quality and reliabilty. Other than that Mercedes wipes out Acura with the first turn of the key.
"That's why the new SL500 comes with a complete back-up mechanical brake system."
Do you think BMW, Lexus or any other company that will introduce this technolgy (BMW is next) won't have a backup system in place? It would be foolish and totally un-Mercedes for Mercedes not too. Electronics are not perfect in any car, including the Japanese ones. Yes they are better at it, but they too have problems....admittedly not as often. About Mercedes' SBC I haven't heard about it failing on the SL or the E-Class as of yet. The ABC active suspension technology works brilliantly too, as advertised.
I see you're going off into the best factories and the best this and that. Well, our initial conversation was about which cars have the most advanced technology. That would be Mercedes-Benz or BMW. Specifically, the SL, CL or 7-Series. Period. For better of for worse they are miles ahead of anything produced in Japan. America has nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing worth mentioning.
A 1995 Legend was a good car, no doubt, but I can find plenty of cars from just about any brand in good shape that spent most of their life in Georgia. Now lets talk about all the E-Classes I see around here (Chicago) that look brand new. Now just the 1996-2002 models either, I'm talking about the 1986-1995 E also. Ever noticed which cars don't have damage after a hail storm? It's usually Volvo and Mercedes, thicker sheetmetal and better paint will do the trick everytime. Acura doesn't "build" a car the same way Mercedes does.
If you don't believe me about Mercedes' longevity, just take a look at a used car lot that sells foreign cars. You'll find the Mercedes there in better shape than all the rest. A Mercedes can be driven to hell and back and return for more. Hondas suspension is usually shot much earlier as is the intergrity of the body.
I'm not knocking Acura at all, but Mercedes is just more car. A 1990 Legend was a good car, but a 1990 300E was better still, no matter which way you want to look at it. I seem to remember a C&D comparo in 1986 between the Legend, 300E, and Seville, needless to say the 300E won that test hands down.
The Japanese do not lead the Germans when it comes to in-car technology, only quality and production methods. I'll readily admit that the Japanese as a whole produce the highest quality cars on earth, yet for all of that European cars are more popular than ever in this country. That would lead me to believe that either the Japanese quailty/reliability arguement is loosing steam (i.e. isn't *always* what its cracked up to be) or that all these European cars aren't so bad after all.
I'm not going to get into the E vs LS, LS vs S debate again, we've done that a many times before in this thread and others. All I'll say to that is the CR doesn't mean squat to the enthusiast who isn't about to buy something they don't want because they say it's more reliable. "But it is the most reliable, dependable, available and therefore durable car ever made." That remains to be seen, sure it's relaible and dependable, but durable, that will be determined years from now. From what I've seen 1990s S-Classes are the most durable cars made. Pure reliabilty will always be the domain of the Japanese.
nealm1,
I'm shocked!
ljflx,
A few exceptions to your post. Have you not read about all the transmission problems Acura/Honda owners are having as of late? Have you not seen the cheapish interiors on the newer Nissan products? From the Altima, G35 to 350Z, all cheap, hardly the pillar of quality. Have you not seen some of the more recent surveys, they indicate that cars like the Toyota Camry has "gone south" as you say. The Americans are doing much better, again going by surveys as most Japanese car fans like to do.
You're giving the Japanese as a whole too much credit. The only company I'm convinced that really does have a superior quality reputation is Toyota, and they aren't perfect. Read some of the Honda and Nissan topics here and tell me they are head an shoulders above all the European brands. Only VW comes to mind as being any worse.
"I also have no faith in MB's drive by wire." Care to explain that one to me? Drive by wire?
Throttle, steering, brakes what? Drive by wire has been on various German cars since 1990. Your lack of faith is sorely unfounded.
M
#2111 of 24723 by wishnhigh1
Dec 21, 2002 (9:48 am)
"Electronics, such as CD changers are hardly "technology" as most people understand the word. It's the brand culture that keeps/kept Mercedes/Porsche and other German makes from installing these things, not that they couldn't. I know you realize that. Lexus doesn't make it's own stereos, neither does Acura. In short if Mercedes felt that these things were so important they would have done it years ago. You have to remember these are German companies and they're still a little stubborn. European companies have never place emphasis on things like stereos, cupholders etc, and it hasn't hurt them nearly as some would like you to believe.Technology is electro-hydraulic brakes, active suspension, radar-based cruise control, folding hardtops, all of which Mercedes did first, all of which Acura doesn't even offer. Acura only compares to Mercedes in two areas, quality and reliabilty. Other than that Mercedes wipes out Acura with the first turn of the key."
Do you realize how rediculus those two paragraphs sound? "Yeah, whatever everybody else does good is not technology and doesnt matter, but what mercedes does do matters, because other cars dont have it" Brand Culture is no excuse for not offering modern and common and demanded technology as standard equipment. Nobody even owns cassette players, yet Mercedes did not offer standard CD players until a few years ago. That is rediculus.
Im not denying that Mercedes has good technology, but they lag in some areas that consumers demand, mostly electronics. You cant deny that. Even Maybach, supposedly the worlds most technologically advanced car, still has one of the most technologically unadvanced navigation systems. Come on Merc, I know you are capable of recognizing Mercedes's problems, why cant you recognize them here. All you have given is a lame excuse.
#2112 of 24723 wishnhigh1 by merc1
Dec 21, 2002 (10:44 am)
"Im not denying that Mercedes has good technology, but they lag in some areas that consumers demand, mostly electronics. You cant deny that."Pay attention! It's equally ridiculous to consider a CD player as technology. Do you buy your cars based on CD players? I hope not, mr Porsche fan. In case you missed it I have stated it many times that the Germans are not leaders in electronics. Your constant harping about the same tired issue of CD players and navigation systems is equally lame and is really just bs at this point. I gave you the reason why Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Porsche, yes Porsche took their time on these items. You mean to tell me your that naive to believe that with all the engineering might these companies have they COULDN'T or didn't know how to put a CD player in their cars! They didn't deem these things important and it was only after consumers demanded, they responded. Porsche still has the world's worst cupholder, but do think a enthusiast really cares? For all they lag according to you they're still more popular than ever, so obviously it's not as big a problem as you constantly try to state.
I have listed Mercedes' faults a many times (you and I have had this conversation before), but you're one of those people who make something out of nothing every chance you get when it comes to Mercedes. So I say now who the hell cares about a CD player when the rest of the car is so right to start with, and it's not like you CAN'T get a CD player on a Benz anyway.
This conversation started out as being about Acura and Mercedes and their technology. Does Acura even compare to Mercedes in technology? No. Not even close. So again tell me what startling technology Acura has brought to the table, or is this another one of your the world vs. Mercedes rants.
"Even Maybach, supposedly the worlds most technologically advanced car, still has one of the most technologically unadvanced navigation systems. "
Oh really, explain that one. Before you even say it, it's DVD based. So I'm listening as to how it's so behind the times.
Another incorrect statement:
"Nobody even owns cassette players, yet Mercedes did not offer standard CD players until a few years ago. That is rediculus. "
It's ridiculously amazing how little knowledge you have on the car you love to talk so negatively about. Mercedes' have had CD players (trunk mounted CD changers) since the late 1980's. The in-dash variety is where all the controversy is, of which BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes were all late in doing. Research before you post next time.
Anyone can see the whole CD player issue was a German car thing, and not just exclusive to Mercedes.
M
#2113 of 24723 Those Badboy Japanese by prattster
Dec 21, 2002 (11:37 am)
Mr. Mercedes-Not to burst your bubble, but ah the 95' Q45t was the only car in the world at the time to offer fully active suspsension be it as complex and expensive as it was around $59k. Secondly, Mercedes was not the 1st to offer the retrac. hardtop SLK, that would be the 94' Mitsu. 3000 Spyder, again another low volume expensive model around $65k for the VR4. I know that the Japanese are woking on steer-by-wire but they won't released it till it's been fully developed and tested unlike BMW's gimmicky and complicated I-drive. Lastly, who brought hybrid engine technology to market first?
Footie- I own a 95' Legend GS and it's one hellva of good, solid, reliable, well-made car. Have 76K on it so it's pretty much not even broken in. Again, the sheetmetal is heavy gauge and solid just like the Benz. and LS400, better be for $44k. Zero sqeeks or rattles to report and the quality of materials and durablity is top-notch. Reported as of the 20 best Japanese cars in Forbes.
Mercedes doesn't wipe out anybody. Their electricals and interiors are not up to Japan's best Lexi and they rush to market new technology that should spend more time in testing. Brake-by-wire is still unproven. Lexus will bring this to market when it's been thoroughly tweeked and tested. The 90's Benz's are durable but there electricals are anything but. The 90's LS400 is also one the best built cars of the time and will easliy last well past 300K but will do so with fewer problems and cost. And besides to be fair, the RL is a 7 year old design which is no one's fault but Acura but the new model will dazzle with all new technology for certain. Spring 03' release I'm told.
Mercedes quality issues of today are a major concern and their decontenting of successive models isn't helping them while they face stiff competition from Japan's best. Which I believe had a lot to do with their rushing to launch all these new models and repricing. Their in reactive mode since the LS400 debuted. The ML SUV is nothing short of a shame. Compare this to the new GX470, no comparison.
A local family friend who owns blocks of rental property and can drive about anything just bought a stunning black LS430 ultra for wifey. I asked why no Benz? He said, laughing thier not built like they used to be and besides I want the best built, most reliable luxury car in the business.
#2114 of 24723 Forgot this by prattster
Dec 21, 2002 (11:41 am)
Here's a link to Q45t.www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/ 1995/1995_Infiniti_Q45.html
#2115 of 24723 by wishnhigh1
Dec 21, 2002 (1:11 pm)
"Pay attention! It's equally ridiculous to consider a CD player as technology. Do you buy your cars based on CD players? I hope not, mr Porsche fan. In case you missed it I have stated it many times that the Germans are not leaders in electronics. Your constant harping about the same tired issue of CD players and navigation systems is equally lame and is really just bs at this point. I gave you the reason why Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Porsche, yes Porsche took their time on these items. You mean to tell me your that naive to believe that with all the engineering might these companies have they COULDN'T or didn't know how to put a CD player in their cars! They didn't deem these things important and it was only after consumers demanded, they responded. Porsche still has the world's worst cupholder, but do think a enthusiast really cares? For all they lag according to you they're still more popular than ever, so obviously it's not as big a problem as you constantly try to state."Porsche is a non issue in this discussion, we are talking about luxury cars and their consumers demands. In a Porsche I would not care one bit about music, navigation, food and drink placement, because I have only one motive: Driving. However this is about as far as can be with luxury cars. Luxury cars are for those who care less about the driving(although still quite a bit) but more about the ride, creature comforts, ergonomics, and style, etc.
And I am not saying they didnt have the technology, of course they did. BUT THEY DONT IMPLEMENT IT!!!!!!! They did not deem these things important because they thought the consumer didnt care, in which they were flat out wrong and very very late to the game. Like you say, all German Lux makes are bad at this game. They try to force their Corporate Culture and driving morals on a public who has a choice in what they drive and they paid the penalty for it.
"I have listed Mercedes' faults a many times (you and I have had this conversation before), but you're one of those people who make something out of nothing every chance you get when it comes to Mercedes. So I say now who the hell cares about a CD player when the rest of the car is so right to start with, and it's not like you CAN'T get a CD player on a Benz anyway."
You are right, you can get a CD player. Why werent they standard equipment? It is rediculus to have to pay extra for an option in a Mercedes when you can get it standard in a Mazda. As far as Nav systems go, they are a huge growing market in the US, and Mercedes should at least offer an optional Nav system that is up to date. They need a DVD navigation disc, they need a better screen, and a better user interface. Audi is even worse, as far as Nav systems go, which also sad.
"This conversation started out as being about Acura and Mercedes and their technology. Does Acura even compare to Mercedes in technology? No. Not even close. So again tell me what startling technology Acura has brought to the table, or is this another one of your the world vs. Mercedes rants."
If this is purely out of debate about technology, then you are right, Mercedes is better off(except on electronics). But from what I was reading in this topic, it was about whether Acura can compete with Mercedes.
"Oh really, explain that one. Before you even say it, it's DVD based. So I'm listening as to how it's so behind the times."
It still has one of the worst input interfaces and the screen and display are still of horrible quality, from the pictures and displays.
"It's ridiculously amazing how little knowledge you have on the car you love to talk so negatively about. Mercedes' have had CD players (trunk mounted CD changers) since the late 1980's. The in-dash variety is where all the controversy is, of which BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes were all late in doing. Research before you post next time."
WHO THE HELL USES THOSE THINGS? In dash CD players have been popular since the early 90s. You know damn well that is what I was talking about.
"Anyone can see the whole CD player issue was a German car thing, and not just exclusive to Mercedes."
Yep...so?
#2117 of 24723 Just to chime in about firsts.....Mercedes was the one who had active by 610looper
Dec 21, 2002 (2:13 pm)
suspensions and folding hard tops...88-89 560 SEL SL SEC.. http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/default.htm this is just a cool site everyone should check out http://www.autocluster.com/sa_history/id105.htm#2118 of 24723 Uh..... Don't forget those figures now... by zachmbenzfvr
Dec 21, 2002 (2:52 pm)
Well, Back onto the subject of Acura competing with Mercedes. No. That is the simplest answer. No. Acuras upper range car doesn't even come close to the E-class. Mercedes sold 44,445 E-classes in 2001 compared to a meager 10,723 for the RL. So whether you think the RL is better than the E is fine with me but 33,722 people thought differently from you. The new E-class has a 10 month waiting list from what I have heard so I think Acura has alot to work on if you ask me.#2119 of 24723 How Does Toyota Do It? by footie
Dec 21, 2002 (3:00 pm)
IMHO the number one technology that Toyota has is the Toyota Production System. It's generally recognized as the most significant manufacturing innovation since Henry Ford's approach to mass productions.
"Everything that doesn't add value, is waste. Waste of capital, waste of time, waste of employee ability to contribute".
Because of the way they put cars together, everything else follows. Lower cost, higher quality and virtually no defects.
Even when you spend some time reading how and why it works, it still takes some rumination to figure out how they do what they do. Then it hits you.
It is VERY different from the way traditional factories in the U.S. and Germany operate:
1) Quantity Management: Pull system with minimum inventory. Just in time, production line driven, component demand
2) Quality Management: Constant inspection at each process step. Defects stop production with no inventory.
3) Maximum use of human capabilities. Empower the worker and teams. Rewards improvements from every level.
Toyota runs their factories 'mixed' producing similar vehicles. Order to fulfillment time in Japan is 5 days and has been for a decade.
The link below gives a good summary:
http://www.dig.bris.ac.uk/teaching/m_o_i/studen10.htm
The following powerpoint presentation (58 pages long!) from MIT shows some of the differences in factory performances between Japan, Japan/US, US and Europe.
Given the way Mercedes (BMW, etc.) design their cars, build them and operate their factories, they are pretty hamstrung.
They consume an inordinate amount of capital in-production inventory, take longer to build, tolerate higher levels of defects, and despite their innovative nature, are often forced to bring products to market with technology that's not ready for prime time.
Mercedes won't go out of business, but the bar has passed them by and they fall further and further behind.
Plus much of today's significant automobile technology is electronics based.
The U.S. and Japan lead the world in electronics, microprocessors, embedded software development.
There are times that BMW and Mercedes both bring technology to market before the Japanese and U.S. companies, but it's usually buggy (Rev 4.2 already for the new 745).
They are desparately trying to figure out how to stay in play.
web.mit.edu/2.810/www/lecture/TPS-Overview.ppt
It's a pretty good write up of the production technology that Taiichi Ohno developed at Toyota in 1977.
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