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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
| I will agree with you on the LS. It's a very fine automobile and anyone should be extremely happy with it as a daily driver. It seems to have a taken another step in terms of dynamics over the last one for sure. The quality is unquestionable, and I'm sure the service will put my favorite brands to shame. Congratulations to anyone owning this fine car. | |
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As I thought I made abundantly clear, a car without a manual tranny has little influence over me, except to think "What could've been?".  Lexus has my unwavering respect because of what they have done for the market, with the LS. How they showed off their ability to innovate in design, with the original SC. What they've accomplished, which is unprecedented. And their bold, crisp advertising, which builds the brands image, and shows that they have all the bases covered. They aren't building BMWs. And it doesn't seem that is in the cards. There is something to be said for not trying to be the Next BMW. They seem pretty happy being the 1st Lexus. I am happy too.  But I still want a MT 350!  DrFill |
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This whole thing about the IS illuminates something we've touched on before. It is very realistic to state and acknowledge that the IS does not handle as well as a BMW 3-series, but the impression that many have about the car is misguided, IMO. This is due to the media comps and clever marketing, positioning, and posturing of the IS vehicle by Lexus. It's a form of innocent ignorance, to an extent. There are plenty of folks that do not truly appreciate or even understand the higher level of handling offered by BMW, for example. They get in that IS and they think that it is incredible, but have never REALLY experienced what true driving dynamics is all about. Often, they have no real basis for comparison. Even with regards to the LS460 and S-Class, the Doc admitted that the S-Class was a better driving machine, but amazingly, that didn't matter to him. He is so taken by the Lexus that the superior nature of the Mercedes was beyond him. But back to the IS . . . Here's the bottom line . . . The Lexus IS is an example of just how Lexus can get away with handling that is "good enough" to thrill an average driver that has little or no real appreciation for high-end driving dynamics. TagMan |
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Believe me, Doc, Lexus has already admitted having BMW in their sights, and the sad thing is that there are actually folks out there that think their IS is a true screamer. Some of them think it is very close to a BMW, when you and I know it is not. There were even folks at one time that thought the previous LS430 was close to or better than an S-Class! Imagine that!  So, trust me, people will believe it. One more thing . . . I'm totally good with your love affair with the Lexus. I completely respect you and your opinions, even if I don't agree often. And, yes the LS460 seems to be quite a car worthy of tremendous respect, but I do think it has more weaknesses, at least it would seem so, than it should have. Fit and finish is important, but the primary mission of a car is the way it "stops and goes". Based upon early reviews, the Lexus LS460 needs more improvement in this fundamental area, IMO. It needs to improve the way it stops and the way it goes. TagMan
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Now you seem ready to say that I have called the S clearly a superior driver, which is not the case. A 30-second drive will not disclose greatness, only serious flaws. The S may have BMW dynamics, but I didn't say that, nor could I after today. All that really struck me about the S is it has a great bottome-end, and I really don't like the rear-end styling. Anything above that is speculation. I'm sure it is one of the world's best automobiles! But I believe Lexus also makes one of the world's best automobiles.  Fair enough? All that I learned today is the LS likes to "Stop 'n' Go" too! It would probably make you a slick Patrami sandwich, if you let it! The LS isn't in over it's head. The LS will be alright..... Regarding the IS, the US has little need for razor-sharp handling cars. We have no Autobahn! Stoplight races, potholes, and parallel parking is all we really do with cars taht stresses them. Americans like pretty cars, cars that are easy, and cars that are strong. The IS is all of that. Lexus built a car to a market. The BMW probably handles better, and has the tranny. But the IS is more luxurious and better-looking. To each his own. I want it all! Put the BMWs dynamics in the IS' body and you've got a tight, tight deal. Triple net below invoice, my friend!  DrFill
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 29, 2006 7:13 pm) No, he did not. Try reading his post again. And yes, I stand by my statement, that I so clearly posted that Mercedes' superior driving dynamics "of course is due to superior Mercedes engineering". Those are my exact words and I stand by them. Repeating a mistake does make it more correct the second time around. To be perfectly clear here, I was referring to his mention that the S-Class (and I will use his exact words here) "also seemed quite happy on the handling course" to use the Doc's own exact words. And how does that make S-class superior to either 7 or LS in handling? It was not even a comparative statement . . . nothing was being compared to S-class, so no superiority or inferiority could be inferred from that statement alone. Perhaps he jumped in the car with really low expecations and came out somewhat positively surprised? S-class was not that far behind the others in handling? The only comparative statements Doc made were: 1. LS was not far behind 7 in the handling department 2. S-class has more torque than 7 and LS, no replacement for displacement. If you draw from that last statement as proof that MB engineering is superior to Lexus and BMW, then you'd have to grant that title to the domestics, who have been the grand daddy of playing the no replacement for displacement game. and here's the clincher when Doc further used the exact words, "No real dynamic weaknesses" in his remarks about the S-Class's driving dynamics. That's a darned big statement, and those were the Doc's own exact words, my friend. My friend, you are reading way too much into his remarks. He did not mention any "real dynamic weakness" of either Lexus or 7 either. It's like saying S-class (or LS or 7) is one of the best cars made in the world . . . it does not infer that it is _the_ best. Got that? my friend? It is safe to say that the Doc's post was complimenting the Mercedes for both it's superior torque AND "also", it's dynamics. Superior torque, and also not-bad / quite-good dynamics . . . not the same thing as "superior dynamics" Yes, S is quite good, LS is quite good, 7 is quite good . . . none of these three statements infer any one of them is superior to the other two.
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 29, 2006 7:58 pm) Depending on which S-class. Even the previous LS430 was clearly superior to the majority S-class sold in the world, which were S320. The 290hp 4.3V8 beat the the 215 3.2V6 any time of the day. Did I hear the most fundamental area of a car being how it goes? |
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 29, 2006 7:24 pm) My assessment of the Benz is a better interior than the 7 (not too hard), and more low-end torque than the LS. But the exterior is seriously flawed, relative to the LS. I didn't spend enough time with the car make a huge impression on it's ability to work with me. But it didn't come across as something above the LS. It was similar in material quality, but the LS was more logical, cohesive, and familiar. It would seem I'd have to adjust to the S-Class' design. Very interesting. The exterior of the S is severly flawed? The slab-sided, ill-proportioned front to rear LS460/L is some type of design triumph or beauty? That is really hilarious doc. Of course you would have to get used to the Benz interior when you're Lexus fan, they're two different car companies and have their own way of laying out the controls. That is something you'd bascially have to do with any car in this class considering all the controls they all have. You find the Lexus to be "familiar" and I find a Mercedes to be "familiar", where is the superiority in that? Lexus' fundamental definition of "luxury" is loads of bright beige leather and funny colored woods all made as buttery feeling as possible all the while being isolated from the driving experience. They're working on that latter part, but still have a ways to go. Lexus' interiors themes really aren't that far off from a Buick or Cadillac of years gone by - in concept...not exection mind you. I personally don't see how anyone could find anything special about the interior of a Lexus beyond their materials because the layout is the same as a regular Toyota, right down to the center stack design. Look at the LS and the Camry for example. German cars are about more understated luxury that feels more spartan if you're only doing a 10 minute test drive. That along with their dynamics is what makes them different. Doesn't make the Lexus more "luxurious" or the German cars any less luxurious. I agree that the BMW 7-Series' interior is a mess. When you take a simple seat-mounted switch that is shaped like a seat and convert it to a twist knob and a several buttons around it there is a fundamental problem. Complication for the sake of doing so in other words. You say a 30 second test drive doesn't reveal everything or even a lot, and I agree with this, but if the first impressions are that a S550 is a superior car dyanamically in a tight course staged by Lexus don't you think that would carry over the real-world roads? Japanese cars aren't known for improving their dynamics as speeds increase like German cars are. M |
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