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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 29, 2006 11:52 am) That is very impressive that you took the time to write that extensive report, but my only question is how you can consider the LS styling more advanced than the S550 when the S-Class is larger and has a lower coefficient of drag? I understand if you prefer the styling because that is a very personal thing but to say it is more advanced is incorrect. Also I don't understand how you can say the German cars are not cohesive inside and out, I have always felt that way about Lexus. This is all purely opinion of course, as any design analysis is, but the curves of the exterior are mirrored on the outside in both the BMW and Mercedes-Benz while Lexus has nothing of the sort. Regardless the LS460 is a simply phenomenal vehicle for the price I agree, I would still say the Germans are superior, however.
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Replying to: dhamilton (Oct 29, 2006 3:44 pm) TagMan |
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in Sacramento, and went to high school in Stockton. I grew up loving the Steelers, and hating the 49'ers. I've always had a soft spot for the Warriors for some reason. IMO the LS styling is advanced a hair past the ES and just about everything else in the line. I don't think the S class is a stunner, but at least it separates itself from Mercedes 40k models. The LS doesn't even separate itself from Toyota very much. This is something that people harp on the RL about, and to give the LS a free pass on styling is hilarious. Also, while I think ergonomically the LS was more intuitive, the S was far more clean looking and modern to my eye on the inside. The COMMAND thingy is a bit daunting for me, but I can't say it completely sucks without having time to mess with it, which I didn't. |
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The LS and S550 had drag coefficients of .26. The BMW was .29. You seem to put quite a bit of value of the drag, as a sign of advanced aerodynamics/design. This is interesting, given the Lexus has had a drag coefficient as low as .25 since 1995, and Mercedes has been playing catch-up. Mind you, the Prius has a .25 co., and is also regarded as maybe the most advanced vehicle on the road. Lexus will recite many instances where they use arrowheads, single-piece stampings, and degrees of light reflectivity to design their door handles, headlight, greenhouse surrounds, etc. The Mercedes has shades of brilliance, but, expecially outside, the design just gets lost, as if another designer took over and changed the plan midstream. BMW's seat controls is just an example of them trying to be contrary to the market's offerings, and sacrificing ease of use to be different. Where I expect to see a stereo, I see a chest of drawers? I consider good design to be a consistent, logical progression, that doesn't deviate for the sake of change. The Germans in attendance failed at this, the Mercedes in front to rear styling. The interior is acceptable, but not Lexus-quality. The BMW's exterior is consistent front to rear, consistently bad! The design is heavy-handed, with thick pillars. The Frankenstein-headlights, and the Bangle-butt, with a needless chrome band that looks like a thong across it. Makes no sense. The interior is no better. The transmission stalk is blocked by the steering wheel. Was anyone asking for buttons on the rim of the steering wheel to change gears? Lexus takes less chances, except out back, where it scores where BMW could not. And inside they just worked on better materials, tighter tolerances, and a little shinola!  It's clean and elegant, just like the outside. The BMW is not clean or elegant. It's just a powerful car. I think there are a lot of powerful cars out there, ones that aren't so eager to upset prospective owners.  DHamilton Let's see the 2008 C-Class, than we can reassess that. The C has been a S-Class knock-off for quite a while, and the E has it's own design plan. A manufacturer may design the cars that way to ensure loyalty to the brand. If someone buys a Lexus ES, and loves it, they maybe more inclined to move up to the LS is it shares a design philosophy, just with more room, power, and features. If you liked the ES, you'll love the LS! Same probably applies to the C/S Class. Also keep in mind, Lexus started with the LS and ES as their foundation. They are designed to compliment each other. And all things considered, has that been good for Lexus? I think so.  DrFill |
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I don't like the ES. Their is nothing about that car I like. I don't quite understand some of your last post. You talk about good design being a consistent process, which is subjective, then how the Mercedes fails in quality which is not as subjective IMO. So, are you saying you don't like the interior design of the S, as well the quality isn't up to snuff? I think both cars offer a very high quality interior but with a different philosophy. The LS more classic and elegant. The S, more modern, and clean. The S says drive me, The LS says, sit down in me and let Calgon take you away. An interior taste is just that, taste. But quality isn't lacking in either car. The most important thing in my mind is, once again, the S goes Seabiscuit on the rest of the field in terms of driving dynamics. If the C class comes out and looks to much like the S, I'll say the same thing about it. 85-100k plus should buy you a different look. Other than the grill on all Audi's, they don't look much alike to me. Also, when Chrysler starts to copy Mercedes to much let me know.
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Replying to: dhamilton (Oct 29, 2006 5:36 pm) dhamilton . . . you and the Doc are in total agreement that the S-Class is is better engineered when it comes to driving dynamics. The S-Class style just doesn't appeal to the Doc. Here is what the Doc said that should prove my point: ... Then I tested the S550, which had more heart than either vehicle! No replacement for displacement! It also seemed quite happy on the handling course. And it had acres of legroom. No real dynamic weaknesses, it's just not very appealing to me, inside or out. See? He acknowledged the superior driving dynamics, which of course is due to superior Mercedes engineering. Both of you, however, offer very different perspectives on the IS, at least as I understand your posts. You consider it a joke, and I think the Doc likes it quite a bit. I find this interesting, because we're talking about the same car here. TagMan
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Replying to: blkhemi (Oct 29, 2006 9:19 am)
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Replying to: mercedesfan (Oct 29, 2006 4:19 pm) Looks like we have a test driver whose instinct for acceleration goes way beyond the powers of merely mortal men. |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 29, 2006 5:49 pm) No he did not. He said the engine felt more forceful off the line because "no replacement for displacement." If that's superior engineering, the domestics have been enjoying superior engineering over both Japanese and Germans for decades: bigger displacement gives better 0-30 kick in the pants.
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