Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24699 messages, Last post on Nov 30, 2009 at 6:41 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
|
I guess this “marque” discussion is interesting especially from the perspective of language usage. Allow me to weigh in. If you consider the etymology, that is the origins of the word, I think “brand” is the purest meaning, as opposed “make” or “manner in which it is constructed.” In my opinion Mercedes is a marque, less so the models such as the E-class and S-class. Each one of their models is heavily branded as a Mercedes and often referred to as a Mercedes in general. The model does not rise above the brand, they are subsumed within the brand. I would not refer to models such as the E-class, S-class, 5-series, A8, LS etc. as marques in the purest sense of the word. There are however instances where I would refer to models as marques. Take the Corvette which I think qualifies as a marque. It does rise above the Chevrolet brand and you would rarely if ever refer to it as a Chevrolet. To illustrate this further, imagine giving a valet your ticket and he asks what kind of car you have. You would NEVER tell him Chevy if you are driving a Corvette, it just doesn’t make sense. Conversely, if you had an E500 you would probably identify it first as a Mercedes without even mentioning the model number. Other models I would qualify as marques are perhaps Maybach, Avanti, Skyline, maybe even Mustang. Outside the automotive world I would say Coke and Pepsi are marques as well as Macintosh computers, but not the Acoustimass sound system because Bose is the marque. Surely there are many other examples but these just came to the top of my head. Perhaps my assessment is not entirely accurate but that’s my take. Now, having said this, I agree with Lexusguy (and I think Merc) that the cars listed in the masthead of this thread are of distinct genre and deserve to be compared in a group as are Luxury Performance Sedans and Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans. However, if this is to be strictly the case, this thread should have been named High End Luxury Sedans, not “Marques.” Anyway, I think “Marques” as opposed to "Sedans" is a worthy topic and this place has succeeded in attracting us car yentas. As such I am glad to see that the rules have been “relaxed” somewhat around here. There was a time when we were required to stick with the models in the masthead. I always believed the cars within the marque should be considered as they apply to the high-end brand and I had argued this in the past only to have been sent to the Gulag Archipelago. Needless to say, the Berlin wall has crumbled in this thread and for this I am unquestionably happy thanks to the catharsis of Pat and Kirstie our recovering despots. (Oh for heaven’s sake I’m just kidding.) 
|
|
|
Replying to: designman (Oct 28, 2006 1:33 pm) TagMan |
|
|
Replying to: designman (Oct 28, 2006 1:32 pm) I understand that its an interesting car, it just seems to make far less practical sense than the RX400h (which doesn't make much sense to begin with), and on top of that, the hybrid premium is double that of the RX400h. 0-60 in four and a half seconds is AMG territory. There's absolutely no chance that it can match that. The GS350 with 303hp is good for 5.8 seconds or so. Even with the electric torque boost (although interestingly the GS450h has 267ft.lbs  4800rpm, vs. the 350's 274ft.lbs 3600rpm), a car that weighs 400lbs. more with just 36 more horsepower will not be able to shave more than a second off of that time. Most of the magazine tests seem to be slightly above the offical 5.2 seconds. I firmly believe the GS350 is the best of the bunch by far. The steering is apparently electric in the 350 and not hydraulic as I thought, but without VGRS there's a decent amount of feedback. Its no M or 5 series, but for Lexus steering its pretty good. Its the second lightest car in the class, beaten only by the 530i, and it feels fairly tossable and willing to play. No VDIM means the car doesn't go into panic\shutdown mode if you try to have some fun. The brakes are the good old fashioned kind, so there's none of the grabbiness of the electric brakes in the 430 and 450h. If I was in the market for a midsize LPS, and the M35x did not exist, the GS350 AWD is what I would get. |
|
|
Replying to: designman (Oct 28, 2006 1:30 pm) |
|
|
hasn't done well in comparos. I would be interested in driving the GS350 since I found the GS300 to be quite entertaining. If only my right knee and thigh didn't hit the console! Also had trouble with the left foot well. The GS cockpit is quite confining despite the illusion of size created by its outward appearance. Oh, well. I will attempt to sit in a GS350 if I see it at Thursday's auto show. I've never been a quitter.
|
|
|
Lexus really starts of the day right by reinforcing their status as a very high class company. They even truck in their own tents and decor so as to make a very modern, but warm reception. Everything from the food, to those on hand to direct traffic were on par with a classy company. Their were 3 sections for driving. 1. LS460, with a 7 series, and an S class for comparison. Their were numerous LS's to drive to keep the lines moving. [Mostly long wheel base] The line for the 1 S class backed up quite a bit. 2. IS 250,350, GS350,450h 3. ES, RX350,4ooh,SC430 First up The IS 350. Upon climbing in to the cabin and driving it about 150 yards to the starting line, I was very impressed with the cabin fit and finish. Very well done and comfortable. When given the OK I accelerated hard, and then braked for the first corner and the realization hit me that this car is a hilarious joke as a sports sedan IMO. The steering is beyond words artificial, and the chassis under steers like Dick Cheaney has accidental shootings on hunting excursions. I won't waste any more words on this joke of a car. GS 350. Hpowers, LG and others are right on about this car. It's the most sporty of the bunch. The best steering, descent chassis and great acceleration once you start to make revs. GS450h. It's everything that everyone says. Beyond the forceful acceleration I've already forgot about driving it. BMW 7 series. I think someone loaded a bunch of buttons and control knobs in a shotgun, and shot the dashboard and general vicinity. This car is an ergonomic nightmare. IMO Drfill has it nailed. This car is not aging graciously. The transmission hunted for gears and it didn't feel all that great after driving the LS and S class. Lexus LS460. Spending this kind of dough on a car should get you a unique car. Unfortunately to my eye is looks to much like a 40k ES. It drives awesome, however, The brakes are grabby. The interior is first class. The ergonomics are so superior to the Germans that it's almost a knife being brought to a gunfight, especially in the case of the 7 series. Acceleration is very strong, and this car feels very light on it's feet. On a side note, Lexus is very big on everything you read for a particular model having 0-60 times posted. They are geniuses in the American market knowing that most Americans measure performance simply in terms of acceleration. That and constantly hearing, and seeing demos of the car parking itself. BFD IMO. All that to say, the LS is an excellent car. It feels better through corners than the IS IMO. S class. The interior isn't as warm as the LS but it's simply more of a drivers car. More buttoned down all the way through the track. My butt dynometer says that the S is a fair amount quicker than the LS, and the tranny smoother and quicker. When I got out of it, I had to turn around and really make sure I just drove a car that big and that felt that good around a track. The ES, and RX drive like pigs, but are very nicely appointed. All in all I had a good time and came away more convinced that Lexus has their stuff together, it's just stuff that I mostly wouldn't want. The LS on the other hand, well if I was in the market for that kind of car I would seriously consider it before I wouldn't buy it or the S class and wait for the redesign Audi A8. [what can I say, I'm drunk on the kool aid  ] Kudos to Lexus for putting on a very classy event. |
|
|
Replying to: hpowders (Oct 28, 2006 4:26 pm) In the Edmunds comparo no, it didnt. But then Edmunds ranked the GS430 in first place and gave the M45 Sport last place for being too sporty in their sport sedan comparison, so what do they know? It was kind of funny reading the backpedaling in the opening lines of their GS AWD review to try and explain how the GS could possibly be so good and yet so bad at the same time. That AWD comparison also saw the RL receive first place over the A6 and M35x, so clearly Edmunds ability to judge the mid-lux category is questionable at best. C&D also really likes the RL for some reason. I don't get it, there's absolutely nothing about that car I like, and the vast majority of LPS shoppers seem to agree with me. What other comparisons has the GS AWD been in?
|
|
|
Replying to: dhamilton (Oct 28, 2006 6:32 pm) I agree with you about the BMW 7. I would never get one and would pass on driving it if they have it at my Taste event. The LS is what it is. More luxury than sport and probably always will be. I pretty much know already that it is the GS350 that will most impress me since I liked the GS300 quite a bit. Thanks for the comprehensive feedback! |
|
Sorry HP, I wasn't even thinking about the footwell. I'm about 5'10" and I think I've seen you list yourself at 6'1" or so. It didn't seem confining to me. Now the GS, yeah that's a much smaller car on the inside than it looks on the outside.
|
|
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2011 Audi A8
2010 BMW 7 Series
2008 Jaguar XJ-Series
2010 Lexus LS 460
2010 Mercedes-Benz S-Class
2006 Volkswagen Phaeton
2009 Maserati Quattroporte
2010 Mercedes-Benz CL-Class
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
