Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#20468 of 24726 Mercedes-Benz - A short lesson...
Oct 25, 2006 (10:41 pm)
Yes Tag the CLS is a fancy, very fancy E-Class right down to the lugnuts. Such a stunning job they did in converting it huh? The interior uses the same hardpoints as the E, but the materials and trim are different. The big ole plank of wood really sets it off.
The small MB SUV will be the GLK, not the MLK. MLK couldn't be used for obvious reasons.
Lexusguy, you continue to impress despite your handle...lol!
The Mercedes lineup for all of those who are bewildered by the sheer number of models and their meanings, stay with me here:
C = To the best of my knowledge stands for compact, "Kompakt".
E = This used to mean the German word for fuel-injection (Einspritzung) when it was used in everything from 560SEL to 300CE, but now it mean "E-Class" which from what I've seen on dedicated MB boards means "Excutive".
S = Special or Super, continued debate on this elsewhere. Derived from "Sonderklasse" which means super in German or something like that.
CLK = Coupe, Light, Short.
CL = Coupe, Light.
SL = Sport, Light.
SLR = Sport, Light, Racing. (my favorite)
G = Geländewagen.
CLS = Coupe, Light, Sport maybe? I have no idea.
SLK = Sport, Light, Short.
GLK = Geländewagen, Light, Short.
GL = Geländewagen, Light.
The ML and R I don't have a clue as to what they mean. M could stand for multi-purpose something. The R was originally the "Grand Sport Tourer", but they didn't call it the GST-Class so who knows. Knowing Mercedes though it means something.
Obviously the word "light" (Leicht) as in being lightweight doesn't accurately describe any modern day Benz! Neither does short really except for maybe the SLK.
Prior to the 1994 model year Mercedes used to put the letter before the number, that number being the engine size. The 560SEL which meant a 5.6L Super/Special, Fuel-injected, Long. The 300E for example meant 3L, Fuel-Injected. Then you had models like the 300TD which mean meant 3L, Touring (i.e. wagon), Diesel. 300CE meant 3L, Coupe, Fuel-Injected. Then you had 190E, which wasn't the engine size or anything, but still Fuel-Injected. Makes sense doesn't it?
Anyway, the greatest MB sedan of this era was the "500E" IMO.
#20469 of 24726 Re: MB marketting quirks [lexusguy]
Oct 26, 2006 (5:17 am)
but is Infiniti a HELM? Not really.
What category would you put the Q in? I think it is close to the Jag in perception.
I saw a new Q in a parking lot the other day and I have to say that it looked great to me. The fit and finish was excellent. I will admit that I know nothing about the driving dynamics, etc.
Oct 26, 2006 (6:32 am)
"4-door coupe" is just a self-contradictory term invented to say "we are new, we aredifferent" Overtime, IMHO, that styling difference will give way to the practicality of normally proportioned sedans. The difference between CLS and regular E will be in the performance department.
ES competes with Buick? only in the minds of some ES detractors. Even Buick only claims their sedan compete against Toyota's. Getting AWD will give ES a major differentiator from Camry, and position the model more inline with Audi A6. Sure, its mission is not to compete agaisnt BMW (that's the department of GS and CLS), but having AWD is a major credibility point on paper now that RWD and AWD are in fashion. Audi did not even bring the FWD base A6 to the US until recently, despite the A6 platform is basicly a FWD platform just like that of the ES.
#20471 of 24726 Re: MB marketting quirks [lexusguy]
Oct 26, 2006 (6:35 am)
So, in other words, since Infiniti is a luxury brand, you are inclined to include the Q as HELM? XJ's "success" has to be taken in context . . . its sales volume was not much higher than that of the Q even in its heydays. Speaking of glorious past, Buick actually had a history of building extremely high end luxury sedans/saloons, decades ago
#20472 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz - A short lesson... [merc1]
Oct 26, 2006 (6:53 am)
Thanks for the valiant effort to clear up some of the confusions. MB certainly lacks the BMW marketting department's clarity of vision.
E class was derived from the old 300 series, and you are certainly correct about where the letter E came from. MB used to be engine-centric, building cars around engines. It may not have been unique in that regard, just witness all the car companies with "motor" in their names. 1600, 2000/2002, 200, 240, 300 were all popular names for cars. BMW was the first one to systematicly classify cars according to body size instead of engines, and achieved great success doing it, in the 80's. By that time, electronic fuel injection had popularized to such a degree that, the coach building part had become a more expensive part of carmaking than engine manufacturing.
C stands for "cheap" or "commonplace," just kidding. It's probably a mistake when MB succeeded 190 series with the "C" designation when the company also use the same letter to stand for much more expensive coupes.
R may stand for "recreational" but more importantly, giving it a wheelbase comparable to the S class, MB was intending on taking the top end in a new direction and increase sales aggregate volume at the top end without diluting S class price premium . . . hence the "R," right next to the letter "S" in the alphabeic order. A,B,C were probably chosen for the alphabetic order to indicate their low status compared to the E and S. MB may have abandoned or made an exception to the alphabetic order when they named GL class, trying to capitalize on the Gelandewagon name that was already used in the army vehicle.
#20473 of 24726 Re: Mercedes-Benz - A short lesson... [merc1]
Oct 26, 2006 (7:30 am)
Lexusguy, you continue to impress despite your handle...lol!
I've noticed that myself . . . It's worth repeating.
Oct 26, 2006 (7:57 am)
currently a discussion going on as to whether or not the new MDX cancels out the RL's flagship designation. I've driven it, and it is just that good IMO. So My question is, will Acura ever build a HELM? It's not a question of can they, but will they IMO. I think that they almost have to or go down in history as another Saab type vehicle. Not quite quirky enough, but better reliability, and a more solid product in the mind of consumers.
#20475 of 24726 Re: their is [dhamilton]
Oct 26, 2006 (9:11 am)
Trucks can indeed be more expensive than sedans because trucks are much more vehicle (the commercial trucks and 18 wheelers are even more expensive, whether Benz, Volvo or Mitsubishi brand, just an illustration of the logic.) For years, the lexus LX was more expensive than LS.
Acura will probably succeed putting forth a HELM car in the next generation RL or the one after that, when the V10 becomes available. Developing a HELM car is actually easier than developing a successful mass market car: the R&D cost of the Maybach is only a couple hundred million, compared to 4-8 billion dollars that it takes to develop a platform like Civic nowadays. The tricky part of HELM is finding enough buyers of the car to make the whole project profitable . . . as illustrated vividly by the Phaetom experiment. The car is fine, finding buyers of the brand is the tough part.
Acura is not Saab. Honda/Acura has the money and the economy of scale that Saab never had.
#20476 of 24726 Re: E class [brightness04]
Oct 26, 2006 (9:22 am)
Getting AWD will give ES a major differentiator from Camry, and position the model more inline with Audi A6.
There's a difference between the A6 and ES though, the A6 has usually only offered Quattro AWD here, where as the ES has always been FWD. There's no stigma about it being FWD, like say the Jaguar X-type.
A definite possibility would be an AWD ES450h. They could power the rear wheels using the electric motors, as on the RX400h.
#20477 of 24726 Re: MB marketting quirks [brightness04]
Oct 26, 2006 (9:29 am)
So, in other words, since Infiniti is a luxury brand, you are inclined to include the Q as HELM? XJ's "success" has to be taken in context . . . its sales volume was not much higher than that of the Q even in its heydays.
I think there's a definitely possibility of the next one being invited to join the HELM club. I don't see any real desire on the board to include the current Q, as it only seems to show up in conversation to be the butt of a joke.
I'll admit I don't know much about the XJ's sales numbers in the early '90s, I just remember seeing a lot more of them then than I do now. I also know some XJ owning friends that have since moved on to Mercedes or BMW. I even considered an XJ6 myself, but I went with a LS400 instead.