Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Oct 22, 2006 (2:46 am)
There's an interesting early owner review on CL from a fellow who also owns a 2004 Phaeton and 2005 E55. He says among other things:
1. The Phaeton is bigger...
2. The Phaeton has more "road-hugging weight"...
3. The Phaeton cabin feels significantly wider, with commensurately greater shoulder room...
4. The Phaeton trunk is larger and more usable (our LS460L has the Tiny Trunk option)...[rear a/c and icebox]
5. A few of the Phaeton's interior pieces have a higher quality feel to them; the Lexus Link control panel (in the ceiling) and the sun visors feel as though they came from an IS...
Here are the areas where the LS460L is superior (IMHO) to the Phaeton:
1. I never thought I'd see a paint finish that matched the quality of the one on the Phaeton....
2. The accomodations in the Lexus are clearly superior. Though a few of the bits in the Phaeton are better designed or higher in apparent quality, the overall feel inside the Lexus is clearly a cut above the competition.
3. The design of the Lexus interior is an improvement over the VW. Though it has far more tech goodies than the Phaeton, all these gadgets are incorporated into a very simple, straightforward user interface....The overall feel is clean yet tastefully opulent. It feels more like a well-executed BizJet interior than anything else.
4. The tech on the Lexus is more advanced -- and it works better -- than that of the Phaeton; though it may not be fair to compare a 2004 model to a 2007, the LS460L has the following advantages:
a. A HDD/GPS system that works brilliantly....
b. The Mark Levinson sound system is one of the best systems I've ever heard in a car, and I've heard aftermarket car systems where the stereo work alone cost over $50K....
5. The build quality on the Lexus is simply astonishing. I love German cars, but this car is going to give BMW and Mercedes engineers nightmares. The shut lines on the doors, hood, and trunk are have the smallest gaps I've ever seen on a car, and they are uniformly perfect from beginning to end....The details on the car...you realize that every detail on the car is designed with the user's tactile experience in mind.
6. The vehicle dynamics of the LS460L are superior to those of the Phaeton. This was QUITE the shocker; after driving the LS for 20-30 minutes -- then hopping into the Phaeton for the drive home -- I was extremely surprised by how crude the VW felt after driving the Lexus....Though the Phaeton has an amazing "cruise missle" feel, the Lexus feels smoother-riding, more nimble, more solidly constructed, better handling, and far quicker in acceleration than the P-car. I don't know why some testers have declared the car to be slower than Lexus' published figures; the car feels very quick to me. There's also just the right touch of engine noise in the cabin -- a new experience for LS drivers. BTW, I am used to the acceleration of my 2005 Mercedes E55 -- a rocketship by anyone's standard -- so I think I have some valid reference points for "quick".
7. The transmission on the Lexus is a remarkable achievement....It's shifts are smooth yet quick and efficient, and the gearing advantage of eight ratios is apparent when flooring the throttle when entering the freeway or pulling out onto a busy secondary road with rapidly approaching traffic.
8. The handling of the car is quite good....So far we keep the car in Sport/Power modes almost exclusively. These settngs are close to ideal, but I would like to be able to go one-click sportier at times.
#20262 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [brightness04]
Oct 22, 2006 (3:33 am)
I have posted my criticisms of the new LS 460 on the recently formed thread, "2007 Lexus LS 460 Full Test" based purely on the findings of Edmunds reviewers and how these findings positively correlate with the findings of the Car and Driver reviewers. I am a great believer in trends not being coincidences.
Perhaps after listening to the improved (when no improvement was necessary) ML sound system and getting my butt soothed by the circulating cool air of those soft, buttery, perforated seats, my criticism will be transformed into ecstasy after I drive the new LS at next month's Taste of Lexus event.
One has to believe in miracles, otherwise I wouldn't bother to drive the 250 miles to the event.
I will be going incognito so they won't recognize my face from all these posts. Heh! Heh!
#20263 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [brightness04]
Oct 22, 2006 (4:04 am)
When you consider all the advanced technology and comfort items, I think it is priced right.
#20264 of 24726 Re: LS460L [syswei]
Oct 22, 2006 (4:08 am)
2. The Phaeton has more "road-hugging weight"...
Thats a very polite way to put it. I would say something more along the lines of "lumbering elephant", although I suppose someone who actually bought a Phaeton must like it.
#20265 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [brightness04]
Oct 22, 2006 (4:13 am)
"Since when is "europhile" a cussword?"
Of course it isn't, however, as used on this thread, the word has been used as a polarizer, separating the posters into a "we" vs "they" mentality, resulting in hostile posts.
The host asked us not to use such words to avoid sweeping generalities.
In case you missed it, please go back to post #19260.
#20266 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [hpowders]
Oct 22, 2006 (6:07 am)
You have every right to post your criticism of LS460, so long as Edmunds tolerates it, whether such criticism is valid or not, whether grounded in facts or not. If both the "whethers" turn out to be "nots", you will just get rebuttals
On the other hand, citing posts like yours as supporting evidence that criticism are showing up on the LS forum itself to imply that somehow LS lovers are turning against the car. . . well, the argument is less than paper thin
Have fun at the event.
#20267 of 24726 Re: LS460L [lexusguy]
Oct 22, 2006 (6:11 am)
I actually will have to agree with you on that one. But some guy on the Luxury Board bought one and swapped out all VW emblems for the Bentley wings.
This is actually more appropiate as the Phaeton is within a couple hundred pounds of the 5800 pound behemoth.
But the guy that syswei was referring did have some valid points. The build quality of the LS, never a sour point, seems to be taken up a bit further. And the interior decor of the car I witnessed was simply stunning, altho the word peerless does not come to mind as it won't have Audi designers and engineers up at night.
The seats seem to have improved somewhat, and thank heavens they've chosen another tree to cut down as the new wood is vastly better.
Altho I haven't driven one to get a feel of the dynamics, the reviews I've read are basically the same in that it's still the feel of the 430, which is fine for most LS owners.
#20268 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [hpowders]
Oct 22, 2006 (6:13 am)
Perhaps it is, compared to its contemporary competition. I will withold my personal judgement until I get a chance to test drive the car . . . and when I'm willing to pay up whatever the cost is for keeping the car for a few years (a car usually stays with me for 3-9 years, depending on how many cars I'm keeping; I usually get a new car every 3 years).
Regardless, IMHO, Lexus is charging a lot more for brand premium today than it was doing at the beginning . . . one only needs to look at the comparatives to contemporary 7 and S to see that. The $70k 560SEL in 1990 was a fairly spartan car, long before MB caught the gizmo itch and it was bloody twice as expensive as the original LS while delivering less power.
#20269 of 24726 I'm Disappointed
Oct 22, 2006 (6:14 am)
That when the going gets tough some of you German car fans have decided to cut and run. It was a big laugh when you drove some of the fainter hearted Lexus fans away. Perhaps a little lesson in empathy is good for us all.
What, if you lose you just won't play any more? Come on, you guys are tougher than that. And please stop taking things so personally.
Brightness has made some excellent points...and most of them were in self defense. If you don't want to fight then don't start one. But if you do start one try to go the full 15 rounds. Take a lesson from HP. I don't think you will see him running.
#20270 of 24726 Re: As the dust settles, [hpowders]
Oct 22, 2006 (6:17 am)
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I was not using the word as a cussword. It's normal for people have biases. Value is subjective anyway. So long as they don't mind others reminding them of their own biases, don't lie, don't launch into personal atttacks instead of mustering logical arguments to support their biases, I'm perfect okay with that.
I currently own a Euro and a Japanese car myself; and like I said before, if the Euro's prove great deals in overall (termed) ownership cost, I don't mind getting one.