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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24645 messages, Last post on Aug 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 21, 2006 9:37 pm) As in criticism posted by yourself?? and other Europhiles who have not even seen the car in person, much less test-driven the vehicle itself?? Your insistence on asserting "price advantage" only begs to bring the subject of actual price back again . . . after all, how can you even talk about "price advantage" without verifying the actual prices that acquirers pay? The sub-$400 lease S320 certainly holds a tremendous price advantage over LS, GS and even IS350. And yes, MB indeed needs the price advantage, and BMW needs the full-service coverage to bring people in the door . . . to offset their brands' recent reputation for unreliability. Happy now? BTW, the dollar exchange historically went through some major shifts which assisted the Japanese price advantage while putting price pressures on the German vehicles. This was not about inflation. That's the impression one would get if only fed by worthless news headlines with writers looking for excuses instead of real reasons. The Euro started in 1999 at $1.10, went all the way down to 81 cents by 2001, and then up to $130 by the end of 20004, now backing down a little. During the same time period, Yen followed a similar pattern, from 110 Yen to the doolar, to 132 Yen to the dollar, then a dive down to 105 Yen to the dollar by the end of 2004, now back up to 118 Yen to the dollar. The patterns are very similar (notice the inverted quoting for the two currencies, that's how they are usually quoted). In any case, LS has been on a steady price increase, regardless how Yen was doing. |
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 21, 2006 9:43 pm) brightness, I have not posted recent criticisms on that LS forum. They are posted by Lexus folks themselves, not "europephiles", as you categorize people. Firstly, the Edmunds review of the LS460 contains notable criticisms of the LS460. The review was not written by a "europephile", as you so poorly put it. And YES, they have seen the car, and driven it, and tested it. Secondly, the HOST has asked you not to categorize folks like that. Thirdly, you accuse me of posting something I did not. That's the impression one would get if only fed by worthless news headlines with writers looking for excuses instead of real reasons. Worthless news headlines? . . . Of course, the world would be better off to get its news from YOU instead! LMAO! So, finally, I will not reply to you again due to these reasons. You burned us before, and that's it. I'm totally done with you! If others want to mess with you, that's up to them. As for me . . . Sorry, Charlie. TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 21, 2006 9:48 pm) Since when is "europhile" a cussword? I must have missed the host request that you mentioned. Okay, if that's the case, I will rephrase my original statement as "criticism proferred by people who are quite biased in favor of their own European car brands, who never had any real interest in the new Lexus to begin with." Feel better now? Burned you before? Well, if someone makes generalizing statement, it's only fair to question the assertion with the relevant details . . . hard numbers as they say . . . would you rather prefer someone who argues back with no facts citation? or engage you in a childish my assertion is more valid than your assertion game with zero factual support? If someone who obviously has no attention span for details or numbers, and yet claim to have a CFA, it's only fair to wonder aloud if the person even knows that the "A" in CFA does not stand for "accounting." I'm not the one tossing around outright lies, and I suffer nobody's fool. Worthless news headlines? . . . Of course, the world would be better off to get its news from YOU instead! LMAO! I do not offer news. The historical charts tend to be more valid than snippet headline impressions built up in the heads of people who do not pay consistent attention to the financial markets. Look up the charts yourself. You do not have to believe what I wrote . . . nor should you believe everything columnists say.
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 21, 2006 9:37 pm) It all comes down to good old fashioned capitalism. Lexus can ask more than double what the original LS cost because people will pay it. Not that I'm saying Lexus is ripping anyone off. The '90 LS's EL gauges were pretty spiffy, and its center stack controls were light years ahead of what BMW and Mercedes had in the 7 and S at the time. 2-button memory controls for the seat, steering wheel, and mirrors were about as high tech as it got, though. The optional Nakamichi stereo was quite good for its day, but it can't hold a candle to the 460 ML system. Is the 460 twice as good as the 400? I would say so. I wonder what the build cost difference is between the '90 LS and '07 LS. I'm sure Lexus is paying at least 5X more for the ML stereo comapred to the old one. |
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There's an interesting early owner review on CL from a fellow who also owns a 2004 Phaeton and 2005 E55. He says among other things: 1. The Phaeton is bigger... 2. The Phaeton has more "road-hugging weight"... 3. The Phaeton cabin feels significantly wider, with commensurately greater shoulder room... 4. The Phaeton trunk is larger and more usable (our LS460L has the Tiny Trunk option)...[rear a/c and icebox] 5. A few of the Phaeton's interior pieces have a higher quality feel to them; the Lexus Link control panel (in the ceiling) and the sun visors feel as though they came from an IS... Here are the areas where the LS460L is superior (IMHO) to the Phaeton: 1. I never thought I'd see a paint finish that matched the quality of the one on the Phaeton.... 2. The accomodations in the Lexus are clearly superior. Though a few of the bits in the Phaeton are better designed or higher in apparent quality, the overall feel inside the Lexus is clearly a cut above the competition. 3. The design of the Lexus interior is an improvement over the VW. Though it has far more tech goodies than the Phaeton, all these gadgets are incorporated into a very simple, straightforward user interface....The overall feel is clean yet tastefully opulent. It feels more like a well-executed BizJet interior than anything else. 4. The tech on the Lexus is more advanced -- and it works better -- than that of the Phaeton; though it may not be fair to compare a 2004 model to a 2007, the LS460L has the following advantages: a. A HDD/GPS system that works brilliantly.... b. The Mark Levinson sound system is one of the best systems I've ever heard in a car, and I've heard aftermarket car systems where the stereo work alone cost over $50K.... 5. The build quality on the Lexus is simply astonishing. I love German cars, but this car is going to give BMW and Mercedes engineers nightmares. The shut lines on the doors, hood, and trunk are have the smallest gaps I've ever seen on a car, and they are uniformly perfect from beginning to end....The details on the car...you realize that every detail on the car is designed with the user's tactile experience in mind. 6. The vehicle dynamics of the LS460L are superior to those of the Phaeton. This was QUITE the shocker; after driving the LS for 20-30 minutes -- then hopping into the Phaeton for the drive home -- I was extremely surprised by how crude the VW felt after driving the Lexus....Though the Phaeton has an amazing "cruise missle" feel, the Lexus feels smoother-riding, more nimble, more solidly constructed, better handling, and far quicker in acceleration than the P-car. I don't know why some testers have declared the car to be slower than Lexus' published figures; the car feels very quick to me. There's also just the right touch of engine noise in the cabin -- a new experience for LS drivers. BTW, I am used to the acceleration of my 2005 Mercedes E55 -- a rocketship by anyone's standard -- so I think I have some valid reference points for "quick". 7. The transmission on the Lexus is a remarkable achievement....It's shifts are smooth yet quick and efficient, and the gearing advantage of eight ratios is apparent when flooring the throttle when entering the freeway or pulling out onto a busy secondary road with rapidly approaching traffic. 8. The handling of the car is quite good....So far we keep the car in Sport/Power modes almost exclusively. These settngs are close to ideal, but I would like to be able to go one-click sportier at times.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 21, 2006 9:43 pm) Perhaps after listening to the improved (when no improvement was necessary) ML sound system and getting my butt soothed by the circulating cool air of those soft, buttery, perforated seats, my criticism will be transformed into ecstasy after I drive the new LS at next month's Taste of Lexus event. One has to believe in miracles, otherwise I wouldn't bother to drive the 250 miles to the event. I will be going incognito so they won't recognize my face from all these posts. Heh! Heh!
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 21, 2006 9:01 pm)
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Replying to: syswei (Oct 22, 2006 3:46 am) Thats a very polite way to put it. I would say something more along the lines of "lumbering elephant", although I suppose someone who actually bought a Phaeton must like it.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 21, 2006 10:10 pm) Of course it isn't, however, as used on this thread, the word has been used as a polarizer, separating the posters into a "we" vs "they" mentality, resulting in hostile posts. The host asked us not to use such words to avoid sweeping generalities. In case you missed it, please go back to post #19260. 
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Replying to: hpowders (Oct 22, 2006 4:33 am) On the other hand, citing posts like yours as supporting evidence that criticism are showing up on the LS forum itself to imply that somehow LS lovers are turning against the car. . . well, the argument is less than paper thin Have fun at the event.
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