Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#20088 of 24723 So, How Come....
Oct 19, 2006 (8:34 am)
BMW's are always given the CR coveted red circle for depreciation, meaning "excellent."
Every single BMW rated in the April 2006 CR was given the red circle except for new models which weren't rated.
Very few cars hold their value as well as BMW's and this has been true all the way back to the lamented Bavaria and 2002 models of the 1970's.
Admittedly, the residuals are a little inflated on the BMWFS leases, but not by much!
#20089 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (8:43 am)
Ingenious Brightness, ingenious!
The data you point out from Edmunds is valid for the number of cars involved . The sampled examples in Edmunds is substantially smaller than the samples used by the two biggest organizations that are in the business of future resale values/retained values and CR itself. In otherwords Edmunds datais more prone to sampling errors. If I am going to rely on stats I am going to rely on the ones with a bigger samples.
And which brings me back to my original point:
Your view that BMW/MB values are selling at dirt low prices at auctions is bunk. You yourself cant prove it. Can you?.
Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk. And now excuse me I am going to have some serious steak Tartar with raw egg yolk( raw fish is far too over-rated in my opionion)
#20090 of 24723 Re: So, How Come.... [hpowders]
Oct 19, 2006 (8:48 am)
1. BMW sells far more 3 series than 5 and 7 combined. 3 series before E90 had very good value rentention. The heavy discounting on E90 had not yet begun or had its effect by April 2006.
2. CR also gives red circle to Lexus. In a sea of domestics, both brands are fine, especially if BMW numbers are dominated by pre-E90 3 series.
I'd call 60% residual vs. 50% actual auction pretty big discrepancy. The monthly payment would have been nearly a 33% higher if the true 50% residual were used (assuming 10% reduction in nominal sale price from MSRP). On cars like E46 convertibles right now, with nearly 20% off MSRP negotiated capitalization cost possible, a 10% MSRP decrease in residual (from 60% to 50%) would increase payment by 50%. I'd say, that's a huge difference.
#20091 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [tagman]
Oct 19, 2006 (8:52 am)
And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney.
Baloney. Meat? There you go again.
#20092 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (8:56 am)
CR has data on the BMW brands not 7 series specificly. The last time CR did its survey, the BMW brand value retention was predominated by E46 3 series. That's a whole different ball game from the 7 series under discussion in this HELM board. . . it's even different from today's E90, which is witnessing price discounts that had been unheard of this early in a BMW 3 series model cycle.
I have been to auctions, so I know what it's like first-hand. For obvious industry profit reasons, those numbers are not widely published. If you think your own preconceived notions are more valid than Edmunds' numbers, that's your problem. It's rather hard to believe that they would consistently get it wrong on all main line MB and BMW models. The reality is that, from what I have seen, they are rather generous in their numbers.
Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk.
You can stuff your fingers in your ear and say blah blah all you want. The reality is that the market place is well aware this phenomenom, and explains why most of your fellow Europhiles are leasing nowadays.
#20093 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (8:58 am)
I randomly picked 03 745i because it's a 3yr old model and a model that fits the HELM forum. You augmented my argument by bringing up 04 745i and 03 540i, without running through the numbers yourself first. You will get the same result if you run the numbers on other models. Now, instead of discussing the substance, you prefer personal attacks.
#20094 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (9:04 am)
I have been to auctions, so I know what it's like first-hand. For obvious industry profit reasons, those numbers are not widely published.
Huh huh so now you know the inside story on what numbers are published and what numbers are not published in the industry.
Dont worry Brightness I am not going to ask you how you know that? You are not under prosecution at least not here in these forums. But I would just love to be the prosecutor in this one single case of yours
You can stuff your fingers in your ear and say blah blah all you want. The reality is that the market place is well aware this phenomenom
And ofcourse you yourself know that phenemona which is unpublished
#20095 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (9:13 am)
This is getting ridiculous. If you don't believe Edmunds, check out KBB yourself. It's more or less the same. If you don't believe that either, bribe a used car dealer to bring you to auctions that require dealer license. Obviously, those auctions require dealer license because the insiders do not want average consumer to have access to them . . . the same reason why the results are not published (not to mention little profit could be generated from selling the data to dealers).
All the personal attacks really do not add to your argument. If your argument is that Edmunds numbers are way off base, the onus is on you to prove it. I just used their numbers in here for the sake of simplicity, and they are close enough, from what I have seen.
BTW, how did I get access to dealer auctions? I had a roommate when I was out of college and relatively poor, and her boyfriend runs a used car lot and a mechanics shop. They eventually moved in together and got married, but he still takes care of my out-of-warranty repairs and wear items like brakes etc.. Much of his profit is from buying and selling lease returns. He brought me and some of my family relatives to those auctions when we wanted cars.
#20096 of 24723 Re: So, How Come.... [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (10:11 am)
"CR also gives red circle to Lexus."
Not entirely true:
If you look at CR April 2006, you will find a perfect 4 out of 4 BMW vehicles rated excellent for depreciation. Three weren't rated because they were either new models or not enough data were collected.
For Lexus vehicles, 4 vehicles were rated excellent, 3 were rated very good (includes the LS) and one wasn't rated because it was a new model (IS).
#20097 of 24723 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (10:15 am)
I do agree that LS460L may not be much of a price bargain.
That's good. We're closing the gap here.
And the difference between that larger-than-expected fully-equipped LS460L price and an S-Class is the point here.
You were saying that the S-Class price is inflated. I'll close the gap a bit with you myself by saying that I think Mercedes could benefit by lowering the price slightly, because I have posted that opinion in the past.
But, for the most part, I believe that the S-Class delivers more than enough of a return for its price.