Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#20083 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (6:35 am)
There is no golden high auction prices for Lexuses. They are just inline with what Lexus predicts in their lease offers (and the offers from third-party banks). The problem with MB and BMW is that their residuals are way above auction value. You can find out the numbers first-hand by going to dealer auctions.
If you do not have that opportunity, a proximation can be found by simply looking at the trade-in values on the cars on edmund's website, take for example:
a 2003 745i's trade-in value is 36k, vs. new 750i MSRP of $72k, or 50% of MSRP in 3yrs. There was very little price change between 745i and 750i.
a 2003 LS430's trade-in value is 33k, vs. new LS430 MSRP of $52k, or 63% of MSRP in 3rs.
The current lease residual on 750i offered by BMW is 60% of MSRP, clearly not born out by the numbers from Edmunds; whereas what Lexus is offering on LS lease is 57%. Remember, the per centage of MSRP in a lease applies to the entire vehicle purchase including all options' MSRP . . . whereas in reality as we know the options don't add up to much in used sale value.
#20084 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (6:59 am)
Interesting how you used a 2003 7 series as a comparison to the 03 LS
We all know the notirety involved with a 03 7 series model with its new revolutionary idrive system and reliability issues.
The two biggest US organizations that are in the business of determing retained and future resale values voted BMW overall as number one. Ofcourse if you compare one single model from one single year that happens to be the notorious 03 7 series then you will definitely succeed in proving otherwise.
Also I dont know if you are aware of this but higher priced vehicles usually involve higher rates of depreciation . As you know the prices of a 03 LS resembles more closely the prices of a 03 BMW 545 series than a 7 series.
If you honestly believe that this one example you provided proves that BMW/MBs sell for dirt cheap auction prices(which you apparently have no proof of) while Lexuses dont sell at dirt cheap auctioned prices (again no proof) then I will allow you to have that belief.
#20085 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:13 am)
The meat in your bun is turning out to be soy
03 7 series was used because it's three years ago and 7 series is the car that fits this HELM forum. First model year actually tends to have better value retention because there is usually less discount at the beginning of a model run. If you insist, we can look at the 04 7 series. Edmund's trade in is $43k . . . that's 60% after 2 yrs, compared to 50% after 3yrs for 03 745 . . . hmm, I'd stick with the 03 if I were trying to make your argument.
03 540i has a trade-in value of $29k (rounded up), compared to new 550 MSRP of $57k (rounded down), or 51% of MSRP after 3yrs (even after the roundings adding nearly $1k, or 2-3%, to value retention). It's not even close to the 63% of 03 LS430.
Like I said, your "meats" are fake, mere counter-factual prejudices.
745i is one example. Now you have added 540i yourself voluntarily. You can run the numbers yourself on all the main line models from MB and BMW, and more or less getting the same result. Only 3 series before E90 had high value rentention . . . that and some the relatively exotic models like the M and AMG cars. In any case, once you run though the numbers, you'd realize just how inflated the residuals are on MB and BMW cars . . . and that many of your fellow Europhiles are no fools for leasing.
#20086 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:14 am)
If you honestly believe that this one example you provided proves that BMW/MBs sell for dirt cheap auctions prices(which you apparently have no proof of) while Lexuses dont sell at dirt low auctioned prices (again no proof) then I will allow you to have that belief.
You are doing good here with this argument, dewey. Stay with it.
Brightness04 keeps inferring that Lexus is worth its retail price, and that Mercedes and BMW MSRPs are inflated. Heck, a fully-equipped LS460L is not a price bargain by any means, especially considering the car. Lexus has abandoned low price structures, with exception for the basic LS460.
And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney.
#20087 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [tagman]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:26 am)
Not just MSRP, but nominal "sale" price in leases . . . as the majority of BMW and MB are leased nowadays.
Lease residual vs. auction price is certainly no baloney. The difference is the money that nobody ever paid to the manufacturer in the lease transaction. It's even more dishonest than mail-in rebates or giving a free luxury car for buying a condo, to keep the nominal sales up; at least in these latter cases, actual transfer of money from the buyer (or its banking agent) to the seller do take place.
I do agree that LS460L may not be much of a price bargain. Incidentally, if you follow my logic, you'd notice that, even LS430 is not much of a bargain if one is willing to go the lease route on the MB and BMW's. i.e. MB and BMW actually cost a lot less than their MSRP (or avearage "sale" price for that matter) when subsidized leases are taken into account.
#20088 of 24726 So, How Come....
Oct 19, 2006 (7:34 am)
BMW's are always given the CR coveted red circle for depreciation, meaning "excellent."
Every single BMW rated in the April 2006 CR was given the red circle except for new models which weren't rated.
Very few cars hold their value as well as BMW's and this has been true all the way back to the lamented Bavaria and 2002 models of the 1970's.
Admittedly, the residuals are a little inflated on the BMWFS leases, but not by much!
#20089 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:43 am)
Ingenious Brightness, ingenious!
The data you point out from Edmunds is valid for the number of cars involved . The sampled examples in Edmunds is substantially smaller than the samples used by the two biggest organizations that are in the business of future resale values/retained values and CR itself. In otherwords Edmunds datais more prone to sampling errors. If I am going to rely on stats I am going to rely on the ones with a bigger samples.
And which brings me back to my original point:
Your view that BMW/MB values are selling at dirt low prices at auctions is bunk. You yourself cant prove it. Can you?.
Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk. And now excuse me I am going to have some serious steak Tartar with raw egg yolk( raw fish is far too over-rated in my opionion)
#20090 of 24726 Re: So, How Come.... [hpowders]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:48 am)
1. BMW sells far more 3 series than 5 and 7 combined. 3 series before E90 had very good value rentention. The heavy discounting on E90 had not yet begun or had its effect by April 2006.
2. CR also gives red circle to Lexus. In a sea of domestics, both brands are fine, especially if BMW numbers are dominated by pre-E90 3 series.
I'd call 60% residual vs. 50% actual auction pretty big discrepancy. The monthly payment would have been nearly a 33% higher if the true 50% residual were used (assuming 10% reduction in nominal sale price from MSRP). On cars like E46 convertibles right now, with nearly 20% off MSRP negotiated capitalization cost possible, a 10% MSRP decrease in residual (from 60% to 50%) would increase payment by 50%. I'd say, that's a huge difference.
#20091 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [tagman]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:52 am)
And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney.
Baloney. Meat? There you go again.
#20092 of 24726 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey]
Oct 19, 2006 (7:56 am)
CR has data on the BMW brands not 7 series specificly. The last time CR did its survey, the BMW brand value retention was predominated by E46 3 series. That's a whole different ball game from the 7 series under discussion in this HELM board. . . it's even different from today's E90, which is witnessing price discounts that had been unheard of this early in a BMW 3 series model cycle.
I have been to auctions, so I know what it's like first-hand. For obvious industry profit reasons, those numbers are not widely published. If you think your own preconceived notions are more valid than Edmunds' numbers, that's your problem. It's rather hard to believe that they would consistently get it wrong on all main line MB and BMW models. The reality is that, from what I have seen, they are rather generous in their numbers.
Your view that MB/BMW subsidized lease averages and manipulation and blah blah blah is bunk.
You can stuff your fingers in your ear and say blah blah all you want. The reality is that the market place is well aware this phenomenom, and explains why most of your fellow Europhiles are leasing nowadays.