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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 7:52 pm) For instance the reason BMW can make BIG $$$ in generous lease deals is because their autos have the highest retained values in the industry. Otherwise BMW would engage more in purchase discounts like Lexus. actually have been suspecting for some time that the life-time revenue for the manufacturer on an S class, aside from the S600, is not much more than that of the LS (LS430!). Whatever difference the inflated MSRP on an S may suggest just simply gets disgorged when the car gets auctioned off way below the residual after lease return. The new LS460L simply matches up with S600 in thar regard. If you are saying now that MSRP's are even comparable, then Lexus may actually generate more life-time revenue on each LS than MB does on the S . . . a state of affair IMHO quite inevitable following the trends of the past decade. The above analysis is based on mere conjecture with no substantiation whatsoever. Both the S and new LS 460L will soon have discounts. MSRPs for both models will soon become irrelevant. If you have facts to back up what you are saying then please provide them . There appears to be little meat in your argument. As the little old lady asked Wendy's CEO: "Where's the Beef?".
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 5:45 am) The fact is quite obvious: far higher percentage of MB and BMW's are leased nowadays . . . clear indication that there is heavy subsidy in the leases that make the nominal purchase price unappealing for a conventional purchase. BTW, what's the deal with Europhiles' obsession with meats  Like Tagman said, let's get back to the cars. It was bad enough to be side tracked by upscale steakhouse analogies, let's not bring the burger vendors in here
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 19, 2006 5:57 am) What kind of proof is that? MSRP is irrelevant independent of whether it is a lease or purchase cash deal? Brightness if you want to continue this discussion please back it up with $$$ and facts versus mere armchair conjectures that cannot be proved or disproved.
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 6:02 am) Go check out auction prices on lease returns. The prices onlease returned BMW and MB are fetching are way below the residual. Checkout what third-party banks are willing to give you as lease residual . . . they are inline with what Lexus would give you on their cars, but way lower than what BMW and MB are offering. Even many Europhiles are realizing this phenomenom; that's why they insist on leasing only, to take advantage of the offer.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 19, 2006 6:07 am) Where are these disgustingly low auctioned prices on MBs and BMWs and those golden high auctioned prices on Lexuses? Appreciate it if you can link me to that site or group of sites. I myself would love to buy such a deal. Such low prices would make it worth importing a used BMW from USA to Canada even with the customs issues involved.
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 6:10 am) If you do not have that opportunity, a proximation can be found by simply looking at the trade-in values on the cars on edmund's website, take for example: a 2003 745i's trade-in value is 36k, vs. new 750i MSRP of $72k, or 50% of MSRP in 3yrs. There was very little price change between 745i and 750i. a 2003 LS430's trade-in value is 33k, vs. new LS430 MSRP of $52k, or 63% of MSRP in 3rs. The current lease residual on 750i offered by BMW is 60% of MSRP, clearly not born out by the numbers from Edmunds; whereas what Lexus is offering on LS lease is 57%. Remember, the per centage of MSRP in a lease applies to the entire vehicle purchase including all options' MSRP . . . whereas in reality as we know the options don't add up to much in used sale value.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 19, 2006 6:35 am) We all know the notirety involved with a 03 7 series model with its new revolutionary idrive system and reliability issues. The two biggest US organizations that are in the business of determing retained and future resale values voted BMW overall as number one. Ofcourse if you compare one single model from one single year that happens to be the notorious 03 7 series then you will definitely succeed in proving otherwise. Also I dont know if you are aware of this but higher priced vehicles usually involve higher rates of depreciation . As you know the prices of a 03 LS resembles more closely the prices of a 03 BMW 545 series than a 7 series. If you honestly believe that this one example you provided proves that BMW/MBs sell for dirt cheap auction prices(which you apparently have no proof of) while Lexuses dont sell at dirt cheap auctioned prices (again no proof) then I will allow you to have that belief.
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 6:59 am)  03 7 series was used because it's three years ago and 7 series is the car that fits this HELM forum. First model year actually tends to have better value retention because there is usually less discount at the beginning of a model run. If you insist, we can look at the 04 7 series. Edmund's trade in is $43k . . . that's 60% after 2 yrs, compared to 50% after 3yrs for 03 745 . . . hmm, I'd stick with the 03 if I were trying to make your argument. 03 540i has a trade-in value of $29k (rounded up), compared to new 550 MSRP of $57k (rounded down), or 51% of MSRP after 3yrs (even after the roundings adding nearly $1k, or 2-3%, to value retention). It's not even close to the 63% of 03 LS430. Like I said, your "meats" are fake, mere counter-factual prejudices. 745i is one example. Now you have added 540i yourself voluntarily. You can run the numbers yourself on all the main line models from MB and BMW, and more or less getting the same result. Only 3 series before E90 had high value rentention . . . that and some the relatively exotic models like the M and AMG cars. In any case, once you run though the numbers, you'd realize just how inflated the residuals are on MB and BMW cars . . . and that many of your fellow Europhiles are no fools for leasing. |
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 6:59 am) You are doing good here with this argument, dewey. Stay with it. Brightness04 keeps inferring that Lexus is worth its retail price, and that Mercedes and BMW MSRPs are inflated. Heck, a fully-equipped LS460L is not a price bargain by any means, especially considering the car. Lexus has abandoned low price structures, with exception for the basic LS460. And then there's all this lease residual vs. auction price baloney. TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 19, 2006 7:14 am) Lease residual vs. auction price is certainly no baloney. The difference is the money that nobody ever paid to the manufacturer in the lease transaction. It's even more dishonest than mail-in rebates or giving a free luxury car for buying a condo, to keep the nominal sales up; at least in these latter cases, actual transfer of money from the buyer (or its banking agent) to the seller do take place. I do agree that LS460L may not be much of a price bargain. Incidentally, if you follow my logic, you'd notice that, even LS430 is not much of a bargain if one is willing to go the lease route on the MB and BMW's. i.e. MB and BMW actually cost a lot less than their MSRP (or avearage "sale" price for that matter) when subsidized leases are taken into account.
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