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High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

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What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#20068 of 24700 Re: BlkHemi [blkhemi] by lexusguy Oct 18, 2006 (7:39 pm)
Replying to: blkhemi (Oct 18, 2006 2:53 pm) And the G35 is outselling it too!   The 2006 G35 is also a lame duck. G35 sales should get a nice boost next year.
#20069 of 24700 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [dewey] by brightness04 Oct 18, 2006 (7:52 pm)
Replying to: dewey (Oct 18, 2006 7:17 pm) Discounting does not automaticly mean financial death sentence righ away, if the price was marked up to begin with. A classic example is jewlry: has any of us ever purchased diamond at full appraised value, instead of say, 30%, 50% or even 70% below "appraised value"? Obviously, jewlers are not going out of buisiness in droves. They have been doing it for decades. Marking up then offer "incentives" is the classic game played by purveyors of luxury goods. It makes no difference to the eventual bottom line at all whether an S class is priced at $80k for a straight sale or lease it at $100k with a $60k residual then later auction the car off at $40k . . . ignoring interests for the moment, the car company gets $80k from the car through either sales method.   There are however three consequences of this game:   (1) a higher sales revenue is booked at inception of the lease, to be followed by a $20k write-down disgorgement three years later. So long as the sales volume is expanding, the front-ending of the book (ie. more new cooked up sales than lease return coming back to roost) looks good for the current quarter. The day the sales volume drops (i.e. not enough new cooked up sales to offset write-downs from previous fake sales), the company is in trouble. That's how the domestics ran into trouble a decade ago: they had to increase volume at all cost. In other words, this particular marketting method can be either a profit booster or loss booster . . . it's a leveraged play on sales growth.   (2) It allows the leasers to brag about having a car with higher MSRP: $100k vs. $80k, even if the real worth of the car (ie. the life time revenue of the car for the manufacturer) is the same $80k.   (3) In states that collect excise tax based on MSRP, it results in a higer tax bill. Replies to this message: dewey (Oct 19, 2006 5:45 am) brightness04 (Oct 19, 2006 5:57 am) dewey (Oct 19, 2006 6:02 am) and 37 more...
#20070 of 24700 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04] by tagman Oct 18, 2006 (7:58 pm)
Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 6:32 pm) I mean, how much is a $50 Filet Mignon really worth if it comes with a $20 gift certificate   Even MORE . . . $70   (I get your point, though)   TagMan Replies to this message: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 8:03 pm) tagman (Oct 18, 2006 8:32 pm) brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 8:53 pm)
#20071 of 24700 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [tagman] by brightness04 Oct 18, 2006 (8:03 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Oct 18, 2006 7:58 pm) And somehow, you would go to the steakhouse insisting on charging $50 for the chunk of meat and give you $20 back, instead of another one that simply charges $30 for the same chunk of meat to begin with? Guess what, you are simply out on the tax on the extra $20 plus the whatever tip per centage you normally pay.   edit: See your edit. Thanks for the witty reparte Replies to this message: tagman (Oct 18, 2006 8:32 pm) brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 8:53 pm)
#20072 of 24700 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [brightness04] by tagman Oct 18, 2006 (8:32 pm)
Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 8:03 pm) Thanks for the witty reparte   You're welcome.   Ever since I said that the "LS is all sizzle and no steak, and the S-Class is all steak and no sizzle" . . . all we're talking about any more is freakin' steaks, steakhouses, chunks of meat, taxes, tips, and gift certificates! What the heck's going on here? Are we opening up a darned restaurant or something? Heck, you want it medium-rare or well-done?   To the point . . . I have yet to see your real numbers showing a loaded LS460L compared to an S-Class.   You guys were trying to make it sound as though the prices were miles apart. And I just don't think they are. That's what this is really about.   TagMan Replies to this message: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 8:53 pm)
#20073 of 24700 Re: Lexus Quality Slipping [tagman] by brightness04 Oct 18, 2006 (8:53 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Oct 18, 2006 8:32 pm) I actually have been suspecting for some time that the life-time revenue for the manufacturer on an S class, aside from the S600, is not much more than that of the LS (LS430!). Whatever difference the inflated MSRP on an S may suggest just simply gets disgorged when the car gets auctioned off way below the residual after lease return. The new LS460L simply matches up with S600 in thar regard. If you are saying now that MSRP's are even comparable, then Lexus may actually generate more life-time revenue on each LS than MB does on the S . . . a state of affair IMHO quite inevitable following the trends of the past decade.
#20074 of 24700 Re: Merc [] by merc1 Oct 18, 2006 (9:13 pm)
Replying to: unknown (Oct 18, 2006 7:06 pm) All comparisons count, but I due place more credit on beating 6-7 cars in a comparison than 1 or 2 cars.   That is bunk doc. What difference does it make how many cars is in a comparo. That is absurd and a naked attempt to say that the LS430's wins are more important than the SC430's losses or the more expensive MB's wins.   Apparently you didn't get my point, which was that winning a comparison and being #1 in sales have different values to different people.   Yeah apparently, but the problem here is which you choose to talk about at any given time depending on the Lexi in question. That is my point, your too whishy washy with the whole comparo/sales rhetoric. Example:   Lexus has stated they want to sell 30k GS a year. As far as I can tell, every month they are getting 2500 a month out of it, so even if it isn't King of The Mountain, it is successful to it's maker, and to 30k buyers.   Translation: the GS doesn't win comparos or outsell the German competition so I'll pick on a new upstart and throw in the "long as it is selling" line for good measure.   The SC doesn't have to win comparisons to be a success. Neither does the C-Class. Or the Lexus ES.   Cop out. Plain an simple because if the SC was a comparo test winner you'd be shouting about it as you do the LS. That is far too hypocritical doc. The car doesn't outsell the German competition nor does it beat it in comparos, but it is still a success when it flunks two of your biggest test? Yeah ok. What a gloss over. Oh now the C-Class can be success, but I seem to remember correcting you C-Class sales a while back, and now it is be a success when it doesn't win comparos, but before it was a bottom feeder?   If the boring LS can, consistently, win comparisons with other sexier, sportier, more powerful rides, it says something about Lexus and their ability to execute.   Now comparos are important again just that quick right?   I remember when the 1996 Isuzu Trooper won an 8-truck SUV comparison in C&D.      Would you call the Trooper a success? No. Why? Because no one bought one.   Pretty desperate to have to go back 10 years for that one to make a point in defense of Lexus.   Which way is up?   M Replies to this message: brightness04 (Oct 18, 2006 10:20 pm) drfill (Oct 19, 2006 5:05 am) merc1 (Oct 19, 2006 9:33 pm)
#20075 of 24700 Re: Merc [merc1] by brightness04 Oct 18, 2006 (10:20 pm)
Replying to: merc1 (Oct 18, 2006 9:13 pm) The number of cars in a comparo does matter when judging the value of a comparo, for three reasons:   (1) many of the criteria used in a comparo are subjective rankings, not hard numbers (even hard numbers are problematic, how many tenths of an inch in shoulder room offsets how many tenths of a second to 60mph??, you get the point . So in a field of very few cars, it utterly comes down to the weight assigned to each category. Whereas in a field of many cars, because points are dependent on relative rankings, the sheer number of entries makes the rankings more meaningful.   (2) Comparos with more cars also tend to involve more people, hence less likely to be beholden to the agenda of a couple individuals.   (3) Comparos with more cars also tend to divest the testers' prejudice as they broaden their horizon.   GS is not the only Lexus entry for a midsize luxury sedan/wagon. Just a hint: Lexus sells 110k midsize luxury sedans a year. If we want to bring the Lexus compeition to A6, 5 and E wagons into the discussion as well, Lexus sells well over 200k units of midsize luxury sedans and wagons in the US every year. Many midsize luxury sedan buyers find ES350 to be adequate, just like many 5 series buyers find 525 and 530 adequate. Enthusiasts and comparo writers may find 525xi (or was that 530xi?) an utter disaster, just like FWD ES is pathetic in handling . . . for most buyers who want to have a cushy ride while stuck in traffic, and occasionally get themselves around in snow, both cars are adequate. That is market reality.
#20076 of 24700 Re: Merc [merc1] by drfill Oct 19, 2006 (5:05 am)
Replying to: merc1 (Oct 18, 2006 9:13 pm) On your own admission, sales AND comparisons are maybe the two best ways to judge the value/effectiveness of a car in the marketplace.      Therefore, either side of the coin can be used, no?      If a car is successful when judged against it's peers, that's good. But if it can't be sold, that bad.      Are you calling the SC a failure?      Regarding the GS, let me state again, for the umpeenth time, it's not what I would've designed, but it is meeting the target numbers for Lexus, so it maybe successful TO LEXUS. I didn't say I'm THRILLED with it. It's not simantics. That's what I said before.      Is it Lexus GS/ES successful, no. Is it winning comparisons, no. I'm not making excuses for it, or apologizing. It is doing the job for Lexus, but I know Lexus can do better.      I'm not trying to discredit any Mercedes comparison victory. My point was if I beat on man in a race, it's not as impressive as winning the NYC Marathon. It just isn't.      In the lower classes, it's harder to get a win, because you are taking on more competitors at once.      In relation to Mercedes, since you are making an issue of it, I have never seen a Mercedes beat a manual tranny BMW in any comparison. So as long as Mercedes doesn't have to offer true sport in the car, they can win.      The M5/6 doesn't seem to offer a manual anymore, so the E55/65/CLK55 is more attractive to performance drivers.      Many would just get a pre-owned M5.      In that price range, manuals are harder to come by, which plays to Mercedes advantage, since manuals are not implemented by Mercedes.      With a slushbox, the car's spirit is severely restrained, and it can never really be a driver's car.       AMGs to me are bullet trains, but I wouldn't want to put a bullet train in my garage.       DrFill Replies to this message: merc1 (Oct 19, 2006 9:33 pm)

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