Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#19967 of 24726 Re: This thing about the Audi image [dewey]
Oct 16, 2006 (11:42 am)
Sorry Dewey, but I cannot see the "luxury" in BMW or Lexus for that matter. It is more than just how much leather is in a car, though I see BMW more "luxury" than Lexus. When I see Audi, I see one hundred years of car building, grand motorsport tradition, luxurious vehicles to this day stemming from the beautiful Horches, innovative technology, high performance, immaculate build quality, design language and flow that is historical to the brand,global growth, rabid loyal following globally by huge number of enthusiasts and owners, global leadership and financial strength, and stealth luxury. All true luxury to me. Please do not deny that Audi does not have prestige because that doesn't make any logical sense.
Internal errors and missteps on AoAs part in the US, does not represent the core of Audi substance or culture in terms of its premier status on a world scale.
Plenty of "sizzle" in an R8, S6, S8, RS4, upcoming RS6 (now being tested in Germany -debut Geneva 2007 with 530-550 bhp), and the list goes on....
#19968 of 24726 Re: This thing about the Audi image [houdini1]
Oct 16, 2006 (1:07 pm)
Somehow I'm guessing I've gotten under your skin lately. You want to give me a right jab or a left uppercut?
When Johnny Carson was still host of the Tonight Show, he was teasing actor Paul Newman (one of my all-time favorites) about fooling around with some of the beautiful women co-stars.
Newman replied "Why would I fool around with hamburger when I've got steak at home?"
#19969 of 24726 Re: This thing about the Audi image [tagman]
Oct 16, 2006 (2:07 pm)
Not at all Tag. I just enjoy sparring (verbally!) with you. This forum would not be very interesting if there wasn't some of us to stir the pot a little. While I don't always agree with you, I do enjoy reading your opinions. Please keep 'em coming.
#19970 of 24726 Re: more blah blah [tagman]
Oct 16, 2006 (4:40 pm)
"Well, it took quite a long while, but you finally got the point!
I was starting to get concerned about you! Are you usually this slow?"
Actually I think it's the opposite!
#19971 of 24726 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [hpowders]
Oct 16, 2006 (4:54 pm)
About the tail lights:
You don't have to be a design genius to see the rear resemblances among the Camry, Avalon ES and LS."
Attention please: Get off of it.
If anything the Avalon lights resemble more of a Infiniti's lights. See the L-shaped design in the Avalon and Infiniti's??? Probably not. oh well.
And if you turned the Camry lights 180 degrees, they would look totally the opposite of the ES's talights. Any genius would notice the ES's tailights taper down as they curve and meet in the center of the trunklid. If you decided, for some stupid reason, to turn the Camry's tailights 180 degrees, the tailights would curve up as the tailights flowed towards the center of the rear decklid. Yeah, I know, that to you guys looks the same. oh well, I tried!! ! And the new LS's tailights look like the Camry's, or Avalon's, or for that matter, the ES's? Please tell, which way you would have to turn each cars lights to make it resemble a LS's tailights!!
About the tail lights:
You don't have to be a design genius to see the rear resemblances among the Camry, Avalon ES and LS.
"IMO,Lexus must break away once and for all from all this obvious Toyota-sharing and come up with their own unique innovative designs, drive trains, etc."
Sort of like DaimlerChrysler is doing with soo much of their products? Ever notice the rear most pillar on the R-class and Pacifica? Looks almost identical that one would think both are based off the same platform. How about the S-class side profile and rear end looking like a Maybach's? Wow! What innovation! Let's not forget the S-class's dashboard being a rip-off of the 7-series interior. Wow! more innovation. Hey, did you read the recent articles that more Mercedes-Benz's and Chrysler products will share engines & transmissions. You know what? that's just the beginning, after that here comes.......platform sharing! Pretty soon you might see a Grand Cherokee and M-class sharing common underpinnings! A E-class and the Chrysler 300 sharing underpinnings.
Oh wait, let's not forget about Audi & VW. Talk about how unique they are from each other. Let's see, TT based loosely on some VW architecture, either the A6 or A4 based loosely off the Passat platform, or vice versa(does it really matter), or the Q7 being based off the Toureg platform.
And you say Lexus brand will earn more respect and people will pay a bit more if they differentiate from Toyota.
Have you been living under a rock? A RX is priced right on top of a ML, the IS is priced right on top of a 3-series, the ES is priced just like a C-class, the LX470 costs $70K, and the LS460 now can cost upwards of $80K.
#19972 of 24726 Re: This thing about the Audi image [dewey]
Oct 16, 2006 (5:03 pm)
MB's were/are common as taxis in Europe for three reasons:
(1) In a society where buses and subways go everywhere people would normally go, taking taxi is the up-scale way of getting around without having to drive yourself. In many parts of Europe, a Benz taxi is not something you wave to stop by the side of the road like in the US; it's something you set appointment for, or have the conciege get one for you in front of the fancy hotel.
(2) There was a time when all VW and BMW offered were either too small or too unreliable as taxis. MB cornered the taxi market in Germany (see above, people did not need taxi to get around; they wanted taxi to get around in style)
(3) MB sell models there intended for fleet sales; they don't do that for the US market, for obvious reasons.
Americans are about average for image consciousness. Far more Rolls-Royces and S class are sold overseas than in the US.
Audi was the Lexus in marketing (minus the reliability reputation) before there was Lexus. It's a brand for selling VW parts bin for more money. Audi has a decent reputation for some parts of the world because it is the perennial forerunner in exploring new markets in the developing world. Compared to what had been available domesticly in those markets, Audi was the best brand available in many developing world markets before the likes of MB, BMW, Toyota and Honda get into those markets.
#19973 of 24726 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [maxhonda99]
Oct 16, 2006 (5:06 pm)
One of the most intelligent posts I have seen here in weeks. Go get 'em Max!! That'll teach 'em to troll!!
#19974 of 24726 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [houdini1]
Oct 16, 2006 (5:16 pm)
Let me start of by saying, the Europeans make great cars. In fact, if I were looking for a luxury car to replace my Acura, it would be either a BMW or Lexus. But the only BMW it would be would be the 3-series. This cars IS BMW! There is not one Benz I would want to own, or one Audi, except maybe a S8.
That leads me to another point. Some talk about the sales disparity between the european products from Benz, etc. in Europe vs. Lexus. Let's get to the reality. A Benz in Europe covers the ground that a Camry and Lexus cover in the US. You can get a C-class with a 1.8L or so 4-banger, hubcaps, and cloth seats. In the not to distant past you could even get a 190 or C-class with roll up windows in Europe. In Europe these cars cover as taxi cabs, livery service, as well as police vehicles. As is the case with cars like the Ford Taurus' sales being inflated by fleet sales, the same is soo for especially Audi and Benz in Europe. Not to mention the earlier fact that one can buy a stripper C-class for a lot less than anyone can buy a IS for in Europe. This is one of the major factors why Lexus gets slaughtered in Europe. The other big factor is the European market demands loads of variations such as probably a half dozen plus different engines in the C-class, Toyota hasn't learned this yet. For Lexus to succeed they need broad engine varieties as well as broad price variations in Europe and a Diesel for every car line is a must. Something they seem to refuse to do as Hybrids just aren't going to cut it in Europe.
But the other fact is who cares if they don't cut it in Europe? Europeans are the total opposite of Americans. We'll buy anything from any country. Europeans are alot more protectionist and prefer to buy only cars from their own Country. A Chinese car will probably take a long time to gain traction in Europe, but it will take less than a decade for one to gain sales traction in the US.
#19975 of 24726 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [maxhonda99]
Oct 16, 2006 (5:25 pm)
Toyota hasn't learned this yet. For Lexus to succeed they need broad engine varieties as well as broad price variations in Europe and a Diesel for every car line is a must. Something they seem to refuse to do as Hybrids just aren't going to cut it in Europe.
Imagine that! Europeans appreciate diesel engines. Tell us more we don't know.
#19976 of 24726 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [maxhonda99]
Oct 16, 2006 (8:10 pm)
The other big factor is the European market demands loads of variations such as probably a half dozen plus different engines in the C-class, Toyota hasn't learned this yet. For Lexus to succeed they need broad engine varieties as well as broad price variations in Europe and a Diesel for every car line is a must.
I think they are working on it, but that kind of thing is going to take at least 10 years to implement. 10 years ago, the only Lexus that offered any kind of variety was the SC coupe, which had two engine choices and offered a 5-speed manual for a few years.
Today there is a lot more choice (especially if you include the '07 LS), but they still have a long way to go to match the kind of variety that BMW, Mercedes and Audi have.