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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 15, 2006 7:36 pm) You are describing various components, but have said nothing of the initial design and engineering costs that would be also be necessary. Besides, the same types of components can vary widely as to their capabilities and costs. Shocks are a classic and simple example of this. You have also indicated that fewer people are willing to put up with a harder ride. A better handling dynamic does not necessarily have to be a harder ride, although a somewhat stiffer suspension is more typical with performance, I'll grant you that. But, being able to switch driving modes also adds cost, as you should know. There ain't no free ride, as the saying goes . . . but it certainly costs less, and definately takes less engineering and know-how to put in soft leather seats and a good stereo than it does to build good performance attributes. TagMan
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 15, 2006 9:17 am) The GS450h is fast, and it is efficient, but it doesn't seem to have anymore tricks up it's sleeve, and it certainly isn't dynamic like M45 and 550i. True, but for all the extra complexity to net a 3 mpg gain over more the more powerful E550 and 550i, the GS450h doesn't make its case. Add to that humpback styling (subjective I know), a pinched trunk and back seat and poof the GS doesn't do nearly the competitive job the LS does against its rivals. A bigger IS won't do the trick either, as the IS doesn't have anything on the 3-Series for 07'. The IS is nothing short of a success, with some small caveats. The nits are VDIM (fixed), rear seat room (a deal breaker for many, I'm sure), and the manual 350 issue, which doesn't seem to be an issue for cars like G35 and 330/335i. I think a lot of marques would like to call an IS their own. Commercial success yes, but all those other things it was supposed to do to the 3-Series it hasn't done. The VDIM having an off switch is only one problem. The other is the chassis. It still doesn't have the control and according to some the ride of a 3-Series, considering how well the 3 handles. Next up is that it really is cramped back there and yes not having a manual is a definitely oversight when MB offers one! The SC is another very successful car for Lexus, but it should evolve into something more dynamic and, interactive. And yes, I still find the car attractive, to this day, inside and out. But it is not SL. But it doesn't need to be. You've always had a hard time coming clean about this car. The SC430 isn't an SL, and it isn't a CLK550 either. Both of them smoke the car at everything that matters to car people, not consumer reports fanatics. The car is a commercial success, but a complete dullard otherwise. Regarding what seem to be issues with my posts regarding sales, exclusivity, and price, Lexus goes as the LS goes. That you can't have them all. Sales kill exclusivity. It WILL sell more than the S-Class next year. As it should. Seeing as it still starts out in the 60's compared to the 80's for an S-Class you're right it should. M |
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Replying to: maxhonda99 (Oct 15, 2006 2:07 pm) Oh no Max I have never, ever posted anything as ridiculous as we've seen posted here from some of our departed Lexus fans. Never. When a new Mercedes/BMW/Audi comes on the scene the joy is spread around among fans and Lexus is hardly ever, if at all mentioned in the same context as Mercedes is when a new Lexus comes out. Totally wrong on that one Max. I mean really, I've read here that that the S600 isn't a luxury car! This was done to make a ridiculous point about Lexus' sales. The LS460 is on the Lexus website, it says the cheapest one I can get in my area is $80K, $71K for a base LS460L plus $9K for the first option package available. Interesting isn't it? I wonder if some potential Lexus buyers will suffer sticker shock from this? However the S still starts at 86K and there aren't any on the lot for that price. You're right though, Lexus seems to not see undercutting BMW and Audi in price a priority anymore. Ultimately, the 1st few month's of LS460 sales will tell if people are going to fork over $80K for a LS460. I think the majority of LS460 sales will be the L version much like S-class sales used to be dominated by the longer versions when they used to make a short and long wheelbased version. The LS definately is moving closer to S-class territory, but IS almost identically priced to the BMW 745. I agree. I'm sorry, 30K is not exclusive and 40K is definately not exclusive. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but cars from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus just aren't exclusive by any means! Well for one I didn't say that 30K is exclusive, I said it was more exclusive than 40K. In general a Mercedes or BMW isn't exclusive anymore, but the big difference between Mercedes/BMW and Lexus is that MB/BMW still has a lot of exclusive models relative to their all the same Lexi. Lexus doesn't have you can't spot on a typical drive to work. M |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 15, 2006 3:15 pm) Bingo! Oh you ain't seen nothing until you mention Acura and Lexus in the same sentence. Then you'll get a load about the prestige of Lexus. If you go back some posts here you'll see that Lexus fans flip flop back on forth on sales, prestige, comparision tests, styling or anything else that can't be applied favorably to every Lexus model. Whichever criteria a Lexus does't excel in, that criteria all of sudden becomes matterless. Drfill will tout wining comparos about the LS all day long as proof of its superiority yet he'd like you to forget that the SC430 has been nothing but a loser in every comparo it has ever been in. M |
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 15, 2006 5:44 pm) I know he'd take a LS460L over anything including an S550, but the others I'd have to see what he says. Of course Lexus makes nothing to compete with a manual 335i or the MB CL and SL so.... M |
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IMO,Lexus must break away once and for all from all this obvious Toyota-sharing and come up with their own unique innovative designs, drive trains, etc; No Lexus should even remotely resemble a Toyota. Sure, the vehicles will cost more, but when people start seeing that Lexus is independent and not just an obvious extension of Toyota, the Lexus brand will earn itself more respect and people would be willing to pay a bit more You see anyone having a problem buying Lexus'? Is Lexus having a problem selling vehicles? Did Lexus lose a sales title or something? Did Lexus become Audi all of the sudden?  DrFill |
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Not going to argue with that. The SC is a success for Lexus, but I, nor has anyone, called it a thrill ride. It is a two-door LS, which is pretty good, no? Considering it's the first vehicle of it's kind from Lexus, it's a very solid start. Mercedes has only been making SLs for 40-50 years. And I eagerly await the Second Act.  I expect a much bolder formula from this car in 2008. Sales and comparisons are as good a way as any to judge a car, does anyone disagree? Would I take an LS over an S550. Sure! Does that mean there is anything wrong with the S550? No. But having seen both cars in person, the LS is noticably better looking, is a better value, and compares very nicely with an S-Class, regardless of price, from where I sit. But the S is hot right now! And for good reason. Next year should be very interesting, doh.  Time will reveal. DrFill
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 15, 2006 9:29 pm) Well as a 2-door LS I guess it does make a case, but even at that goal some say it doesn't measure up. Consumer reports no less!! Maybe Lexus shouldn't supply one when the mags ask for one for a comparo? Truthfully I've always found the SC430 to be an interesting car. I even got to drive it recently! Sales and comparisons are as good a way as any to judge a car, does anyone disagree? True. Agreed, but why does one weigh more heavily than the other to suite whichever Lexus is being talked about? You flipped flopped continuously on these two things about the SC430 a while back, saying one wasn't as important as the other, yet with the LS both sales and comparos are equally important. Then you have..... Lexus fans that just tout sales as the sole indicator of superiority, the end all, yet when a Lexus doesn't outsell the German competition and doesn't win in comparos all of sudden neither sales dominance or comparos wins are important as long as the car is selling period. I mean that is way too much squirming around on the very sticking points that most Lexus fans bring to the table. I won't even go into styling, handling an all the other things cars can be judged on because up until Lexus starting actually trying to style their cars or make them feel like you're actually driving them, these things weren't important either. Now Lexus want to chase down BMW? Someone isn't reading from the same script. M
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Hey Doc - I've been reading about the way some Lexus posters have been talking about that single right rear massage chair in the back of the LS460L. Looks like it could cost more than $80K to get one. They are all drooling for one. Now, to take this a step further, if I understand most State laws you can't legally have an "open container" of alcohol inside the vehicle. This means that you could pay the $80K to get the massage, have absolutely no drink, and, if so equipped, watch that little 9" DVD monitor. So, I've realized that for less than $80K, there are many cars that would be a lot more fun to drive and with the extra money, folks could order a couple of those massage chairs from the Sharper Image, and a 60" plasma TV. That way they can get the shiatsu massage, have a cocktail, watch the 60" plasma instead of the 9", and also know that there is a new car in the garage that is more fun to drive than an LS460L. Maybe all this sounds silly to you . . . but how much is that chair really worth when, if seated in it, you can't even drive the darned car anyway?! So, if you are busy in the massage chair, does that mean the park-asist is for the chauffeur? How much will his salary cost a month? And if you have to pay him to drive, how come he doesn't even have the skills to park? Y'know, the more I think about it . . . I'll just put a new massage chair in my office . . . facing a new 60" plasma tv . . . and count the money left over. TagMan |
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 15, 2006 9:14 pm) Something wrong with Lexus designing its vehicles so they don't resemble Toyotas? Not worth paying a few large more for?
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