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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: designman (Oct 15, 2006 6:25 pm) Ever since I posted that infamous BusinessWeek article . . . the best brand is . . . BMW?   TagMan |
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 15, 2006 6:47 pm)  TagMan |
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Replying to: hpowders (Oct 15, 2006 5:48 pm) Lexus has simply moved up market, significantly. |
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Well, it's time to get back to real business here. It seems that the German manufacturers are going to form an alliance to combat the hybrids from Japan . . . in the form of a diesel alliance . . . all surrounding the use of the BlueTec diesel. They will jointly share the BlueTec diesel technology, and the good news is that the first wave will hit in just one more model year. Ya' gotta' just love this. Here's the scoop: German automakers will offer advanced diesel engines TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 15, 2006 6:23 pm) The phrase "costly performance attributes" has to be well-qualified. MacPhearson Struts as used by BMW is decidedly low-cost when compared to double wishbone suspensions used on some of the competitors; GM invented MacPhearson Struts decades ago as a cost saving measure. Inline-6 is once again cheaper to produce than V6, both in terms of casting the block and the manufacturing of one head instead of two. What may make performance attributes more costly is in scale of manufactur: fewer people are willing to put up with the hard riding often inevitable with performance tuning . . . that results in the parts being made in smaller number of copies, and the design itself with smaller market potential . . . therefore may benefit less from economy of scale compared to a more popular design spec, even if the more popular design spec uses better material. That's part of the reason why BMW 3 series has become softer and more main stream in the last four generations.
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Replying to: hpowders (Oct 15, 2006 5:59 pm) |
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We are talking about gasoline engines. Why? Is it me or is all of America just stupid? I am old enough to remeber 5 block long lines at gas stations in the early 80's during the first oil shortage. If you have a senator or congressperson in your district still in office they should be shot for treason. And you should be feeling a little negligent right now. We knew then there was a NATIONAL SECURITY issue with global oil suppliers. At that point we should have had our government created huge disincentives for gasoline vehicle manufacturers and a huge incentives for alternative fuel vehicle manufacturers. So with that in mind...Better late than never. A diesel hybrid is the greatest opportunity for a renewable resource fuel transition vehicle.(Transition-to get us to the next mobile fuel resource) As we ALL KNOW internal combustion is a no go for the long term, but for the next ten years... Hey we can grow our own fuel(biodiesel)and burn less of it(in a hybrid)and produce anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10th the greenhouse gases of gasoline engines. And if we don't want to grow it, it can be grown almost anywhere, creating a competative supply that is always available. That sounds like real solution to me. Check it. http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/28/bloomberg/sxhonda.php http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/honda_previews_.html Of course it's a foreign corp that is moving on this first. Puleeeeez stop voting your religion or your own selfish ends and start voting your love for: your fellow man, your community, your country, and of course your planet. This is about EVERYONE not just you or just your friends or your football team. The politicians don't want us to find common ground they want us to be trivially divided so they can serve their masters(corporations;national & international)and keep giving themselves pay raises, while voting down increases in minimum wage. Working class America can vote people into office that represent us not our corporations or religions. Or don't and keep taking it(no matter who you are except the top 1/10% income bracket).
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Replying to: brightness04 (Oct 15, 2006 7:36 pm) You are describing various components, but have said nothing of the initial design and engineering costs that would be also be necessary. Besides, the same types of components can vary widely as to their capabilities and costs. Shocks are a classic and simple example of this. You have also indicated that fewer people are willing to put up with a harder ride. A better handling dynamic does not necessarily have to be a harder ride, although a somewhat stiffer suspension is more typical with performance, I'll grant you that. But, being able to switch driving modes also adds cost, as you should know. There ain't no free ride, as the saying goes . . . but it certainly costs less, and definately takes less engineering and know-how to put in soft leather seats and a good stereo than it does to build good performance attributes. TagMan
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 15, 2006 9:17 am) The GS450h is fast, and it is efficient, but it doesn't seem to have anymore tricks up it's sleeve, and it certainly isn't dynamic like M45 and 550i. True, but for all the extra complexity to net a 3 mpg gain over more the more powerful E550 and 550i, the GS450h doesn't make its case. Add to that humpback styling (subjective I know), a pinched trunk and back seat and poof the GS doesn't do nearly the competitive job the LS does against its rivals. A bigger IS won't do the trick either, as the IS doesn't have anything on the 3-Series for 07'. The IS is nothing short of a success, with some small caveats. The nits are VDIM (fixed), rear seat room (a deal breaker for many, I'm sure), and the manual 350 issue, which doesn't seem to be an issue for cars like G35 and 330/335i. I think a lot of marques would like to call an IS their own. Commercial success yes, but all those other things it was supposed to do to the 3-Series it hasn't done. The VDIM having an off switch is only one problem. The other is the chassis. It still doesn't have the control and according to some the ride of a 3-Series, considering how well the 3 handles. Next up is that it really is cramped back there and yes not having a manual is a definitely oversight when MB offers one! The SC is another very successful car for Lexus, but it should evolve into something more dynamic and, interactive. And yes, I still find the car attractive, to this day, inside and out. But it is not SL. But it doesn't need to be. You've always had a hard time coming clean about this car. The SC430 isn't an SL, and it isn't a CLK550 either. Both of them smoke the car at everything that matters to car people, not consumer reports fanatics. The car is a commercial success, but a complete dullard otherwise. Regarding what seem to be issues with my posts regarding sales, exclusivity, and price, Lexus goes as the LS goes. That you can't have them all. Sales kill exclusivity. It WILL sell more than the S-Class next year. As it should. Seeing as it still starts out in the 60's compared to the 80's for an S-Class you're right it should. M |
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Replying to: maxhonda99 (Oct 15, 2006 2:07 pm) Oh no Max I have never, ever posted anything as ridiculous as we've seen posted here from some of our departed Lexus fans. Never. When a new Mercedes/BMW/Audi comes on the scene the joy is spread around among fans and Lexus is hardly ever, if at all mentioned in the same context as Mercedes is when a new Lexus comes out. Totally wrong on that one Max. I mean really, I've read here that that the S600 isn't a luxury car! This was done to make a ridiculous point about Lexus' sales. The LS460 is on the Lexus website, it says the cheapest one I can get in my area is $80K, $71K for a base LS460L plus $9K for the first option package available. Interesting isn't it? I wonder if some potential Lexus buyers will suffer sticker shock from this? However the S still starts at 86K and there aren't any on the lot for that price. You're right though, Lexus seems to not see undercutting BMW and Audi in price a priority anymore. Ultimately, the 1st few month's of LS460 sales will tell if people are going to fork over $80K for a LS460. I think the majority of LS460 sales will be the L version much like S-class sales used to be dominated by the longer versions when they used to make a short and long wheelbased version. The LS definately is moving closer to S-class territory, but IS almost identically priced to the BMW 745. I agree. I'm sorry, 30K is not exclusive and 40K is definately not exclusive. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but cars from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus just aren't exclusive by any means! Well for one I didn't say that 30K is exclusive, I said it was more exclusive than 40K. In general a Mercedes or BMW isn't exclusive anymore, but the big difference between Mercedes/BMW and Lexus is that MB/BMW still has a lot of exclusive models relative to their all the same Lexi. Lexus doesn't have you can't spot on a typical drive to work. M |
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