Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#19930 of 24723 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [dewey]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:07 pm)
Well, I took the same vow you did with just a few word changes to make it a legal oath in the USA.
At the beginning of 2005, I drove the GS300, GS430, M35, and M45.
I liked the GS300 best of that bunch, only it tended to lurch forward with the slightest touch of the gas pedal, its cabin was cramped and the trunk bordered on laughable.
I next tried the 330i and the 545i and I knew I had to have the 545i.
I always search for a BMW beater, but have not found it in my price range.
#19931 of 24723 Re: more blah blah [houdini1]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:23 pm)
So, if we follow your argument as to how great the new ES 350 is then we could logically assume that you would also pick this supercar over the entry level lowly 5 series or the dreadful E class
A rhetorical post . . . and no logic at all!
Read my post! I said that the ES gets extra luxury by giving up costly performance attributes because Lexus buyers don't care about those things.
So, your idea of a 5-Series buyer giving up on performance is . . . well . . . pure baloney. To say it kindly, it just ain't gonna happen.
Just ask any 5-Series owner. Performance, not luxo, is what it's about.
#19932 of 24723 Thought I’d check in…
Oct 15, 2006 (7:25 pm)
Has this place gone nuts? Let me guess... we’re on the verge of coming to a consensus on what the best brand is?
#19933 of 24723 Re: more blah blah [tagman]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:47 pm)
Some of us are just better fishermen than others.
#19934 of 24723 Re: Thought I’d check in… [designman]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:48 pm)
Let me guess... we’re on the verge of coming to a consensus on what the best brand is?
Ever since I posted that infamous BusinessWeek article . . . the best brand is . . . BMW?
#19935 of 24723 Re: more blah blah [houdini1]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:49 pm)
#19936 of 24723 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [hpowders]
Oct 15, 2006 (7:52 pm)
That's why I mentioned the price for E and 5 were around $40-45k at the time. Auomotive price inflation has been relatively subdued in the last decade and half (average price may have gone up, but the size and content have gone up signficantly at the same time).
Lexus has simply moved up market, significantly.
#19937 of 24723 Back to business
Oct 15, 2006 (8:14 pm)
Well, it's time to get back to real business here. It seems that the German manufacturers are going to form an alliance to combat the hybrids from Japan . . . in the form of a diesel alliance . . . all surrounding the use of the BlueTec diesel.
They will jointly share the BlueTec diesel technology, and the good news is that the first wave will hit in just one more model year. Ya' gotta' just love this.
Here's the scoop:
German automakers will offer advanced diesel engines
#19938 of 24723 Re: more blah blah [tagman]
Oct 15, 2006 (8:36 pm)
I said that the ES gets extra luxury by giving up costly performance attributes because Lexus buyers don't care about those things.
The phrase "costly performance attributes" has to be well-qualified. MacPhearson Struts as used by BMW is decidedly low-cost when compared to double wishbone suspensions used on some of the competitors; GM invented MacPhearson Struts decades ago as a cost saving measure. Inline-6 is once again cheaper to produce than V6, both in terms of casting the block and the manufacturing of one head instead of two.
What may make performance attributes more costly is in scale of manufactur: fewer people are willing to put up with the hard riding often inevitable with performance tuning . . . that results in the parts being made in smaller number of copies, and the design itself with smaller market potential . . . therefore may benefit less from economy of scale compared to a more popular design spec, even if the more popular design spec uses better material. That's part of the reason why BMW 3 series has become softer and more main stream in the last four generations.
#19939 of 24723 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [hpowders]
Oct 15, 2006 (8:49 pm)
It all depends on how Toyota intends to manage its brand portfolio. If the goal is to have a Lexus-Toyota-Scion triplet, just like RR-BMW-Mini and MB-Mercedes-Chrysler, having a few Toyota models copying some Lexus cues is not a bad idea. Toyota brand has to move upmarket too, with the tidal wave of Korean, Chinese and Indian cars coming. Once Is and GS develop in sales, and Avalon pick up a bit more on the other end, it would not suprise me to see ES disappearing altogether, just like RSX disappearing now that TL has proven able to carry weight for Acura.