Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#19857 of 24723 Re: Strategic Vision Survey [houdini1]
Oct 14, 2006 (8:50 pm)
Houdini that is just one survey on VALUE . You conveniently forgot the most important Strategic Vision survey that measures the most important measurement of owning a car: SATISFACTION.
And BMW is number one in terms of satisfaction. Hyundais ,Lexuses and Honda Civics provide value. Based on Strategic Visions surverys car owners are more satisfied with overpriced BMWs than with bland value cars like Lexuses. You want value go to Lexus. You want satisfaction go to BMW. Personally I prefer satisfaction over value any day.
San Diego-based Strategic Vision surveyed more than 64,000 people who purchased new vehicles from October 2005 to March 2006. Participants were questioned after 90 days of ownership. The study, separate from Strategic Vision's quality survey, tries to capture whether consumers believe they got their money's worth and factors in emotional components.
Overall, BMW AG outperformed all companies, including Honda, but because it sells only luxury vehicles and the Mini sports coupe and convertible, it is not considered a full-line automaker.
#19858 of 24723 Re: BMW and its worries [designman]
Oct 14, 2006 (9:07 pm)
a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.
Show me a community that prays for higher car prices other than the one that exists in Lexus forums and I will show you a community that lives comfortably in padded cells. I can assure you Porsche drivers are not unique in complaining about high prices.
#19859 of 24723 Re: Interesting LS forum post [hpowders]
Oct 14, 2006 (9:23 pm)
So, If a 2007 525i magically appeared in your garage, you wouldn't drive it because you would feel too embarrassed?
Only if your 545i is beside me at a red traffic light. I would make an illegal U turn with the 525i and drive away in complete humiliation and despair.
#19860 of 24723 Re: BMW and its worries [dewey]
Oct 14, 2006 (9:35 pm)
Dewey, I'm familiar with the BusinessWeek article . . . heck, I posted it. I believe the proper interpretation is that Reithofer is aware of the intentions of Lexus and he has expressed his concern. He shows a realistic and yet balanced perspective, IMO.
Let's just say . . . no boot shaking . . . but he's not in denial.
I'm finding your recent posts interesting, because you and I went around quite a bit on the LS board (before we got "transferred"), and you now seem to have come around to the idea that Lexus is indeed something for BMW to be concerned about.
Some other thoughts to toss around . . .
Personally, I do not see Lexus stopping any time in the immediate future. Long-term, however, I'm not as sure. I am starting to wonder about them pricing themselves too high. (Maybe Doc and friends have shared their Kool-aid with Lexus headquarters.) They do seem to be getting a bit "full of themselves" . . . a little too cocky and arrogant for their own good perhaps.
Arrogance is usually a sign of a future downturn in real-life business models.
Once Lexus discards the "value" card, it's a whole new ball game, IMO.
#19861 of 24723 Re: Interesting LS forum post [dewey]
Oct 14, 2006 (9:43 pm)
Heh! Heh! Sometimes I catch people in the parking lot heading behind me to see which 5 Series I have. I do enjoy that.
But, Dewey, you and I both know there are a lot of folks out there who would be thrilled to be driving a 525i. I mean, it's a BMW! And I personally would rather drive the roomy 525i with its 50/50 front/rear perfectly balanced weight distribution, than a cramped Lexus IS. Once you get the 525i up to speed, it is a lot of fun!
#19862 of 24723 Re: BMW and its worries [tagman]
Oct 14, 2006 (9:53 pm)
Obviously I do not believe the new LS and the GS and IS are serious competitiors to the German marques.
Previouly I had doubted Lexus would try to build cars like BMWs. Why would they anyways when they have a vast number of soft luxury-riding fans? But based on the Businessweek article my doubts appear to be wrong. Especially if Lexus builds a factory not far from BMW factories and starts raiding BMW talent. European built Lexuses for the European market will have to handle superlatively with stiffer rides in order to be received well in Europe. And if that is the case then BMW and the other German marques will start losing their distinctive reputations in terms of producing the greatest handlers in the luxury/performance segment.
#19863 of 24723 Re: Interesting LS forum post [hpowders]
Oct 14, 2006 (10:00 pm)
I definitely would choose an underpowered 5 series over a more powerful Lexus GS anyday.
A BMW 525i vs. a Infiniti M35 is another story altogether. In that case I would pick the M35. But I would change my mind and favor a BMW if it turned out to be a 530i.
#19864 of 24723 Re: A BMW Death Knell? [dewey]
Oct 14, 2006 (11:02 pm)
I was not the one who first brought in the commodized view of engineers in here . . . you were, when you described engineers as "German engineers" vs. "Japanese engineers" Obviously, when taken in those terms, the implication is that there is such a thing as indistinguishable German engineers and indistinguishable Japanese engineers. If you want to talk about individual talent, then drop the German and Japanese labels, talk about individuals. Otherwise, you are treating them as commodity items.
The reality, IMHO, engineering is a classic case of 1% doing 99% of the innovation. Regardless German or Japanese engineer pool, 99% of them are just run of the mill staff members that keep the ship running ho hum . . . it's the 1% that brings us truely great innovations every once in a while. For that very reason, engineers who are worthy of being transplantted half way across the world are very rare; that's why most engineering staff are usually hired locally.
CEO of BMW would like to project the company as some kind of engineering-centric company. . . it is not. The Quandt family has final say on what product gets made at BMW, not the engineers, not even the management like most car companies.
#19865 of 24723 Re: Interesting LS forum post [hpowders]
Oct 14, 2006 (11:07 pm)
Using interior room as the yard stick to assure that 525i beats IS is a bit like the old joke of some bloke bragging about beating the chess champion and the tennis champion in one day: by playing chess wit the tennis champ and tennis with the chess champ.
#19866 of 24723 Re: BMW and its worries [dewey]
Oct 14, 2006 (11:13 pm)
Lexus/Toyota's modus operandi is dominating 60% of an existing market, then 60% of the remaining 40%, so on and so forth. Lexus/Toyota can do this because its forte is execution in detail.
European and American manufacturers' forte is creating new market segments. SUV, Minivan, luxury sports sedan, etc., nonoe of were serious market propositions before the rise of Toyota and Honda in the mid 80's.