Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
Nov 04, 2002 (10:29 pm)
You've somehow let the others confuse you. Where did I use "ownership experience" in any of MY posts? Though since you bring up the concept, why don't you take a look at the SL500 board and see what the owners have to say. Are you saying that every SL has to go back to the dealer and that all MB dealers are arrogant? If that is the case all of Cadillac's cars are junk. Period. Now do you want to get oriented or continue down the path of vast incorrectness?
Secondly, I'm not sure why you can't understand that NOBODY is paying 60K for a Cadillac. Do you even read the Cadillac boards here? Cadillacs sell with huge discounts. Now before you say it I know the XLR isn't going to be discounted like the Deville, but if you think the market is already primed for a 75K Cadillac based on the sales prices of their current cars you're wrong at best, and simply ingnoring reality at worst. Mercedes, depending on the model either go for a few thousand off sticker: any left over 2002 (S and CL models especially), and the 2003 C and E class cars...or they go for sticker: 2003 SL and CL. Even if I'm not covering every single MB market in the country you can bet nobody is getting 5-7K off a new 2003 Benz, like you can readily get off of that new DTS. I know you know this.
We do agree on the SC430 I see, though I honestly still want to "like" the car. It's hard for me to dismiss a GT car, even one made by Lexus. It's priced right and truthfully has very little competition at it's price point and Lexus knew this. Very smart.
However I think you have my position wrong on the XLR. I would very much like the car to be a hit. I just don't want to see the car flop simply because it was overpriced. The XLR should be no more than 65-70K with every available option, that way it sits in between the SL and the SC and more or less eye-level with the Jaguar. I think a starting price of 75K and possibly over 80K with options is too much...the attitude will be "may as well get the Benz or XKR". That will ensure failure for the XLR. Price the car right intially and raise it if demand is high...thats what everyone else does (lol). Nobody is saying there won't be ANY demand for the XLR. How much demand is the question. Simply put, if Cadillac doesn't bite off more than it can chew by overpricing the XLR it will be a hit.
I'm not sure who said the Hummer H2 was a waste of time. I personally think it's a great vehicle. Having seen just about every TV program, reading every article (including the one in CAR magazine, usually very harsh on American products) and lastly having gone to see it in the metal I think it's the best engineered vehicle GM has done in years. The thing is purpose built, every GM engineering unit should be as motivated.
My only problem with the Cadillac trucks is that there is no where enough seperation from the Chevys they are based on. I mean honestly what did Cadillac do other than add some leather, wood, crests, and a few other small options to make a Denali worth 60K? A new and totally sperate interior would go a long way towards justifying the price difference.
Why can't Lexus price their vehicles like MB and BMW? Easy, Lexus has three maing things going for them Price/Reliablity/Quality. Take away one of those by pricing the LS430 or SC430 the same as their MB/BMW competition and they'd sell a lot less....a whole lot less. The Japanese as a whole make the highest quality cars in the world, and they have gained the right in the market to price their cars higher than Americans or Koreans, but when it comes to German cars they still have to play the price card. Ask Acura about NSX sales when a 911 can be had for less.
Lastly, you say that everything GM does is met with skepticism. Its not hard to see why. The CTS is a prime example. While it's head and shoulders above the Catera, we still have to wait until next year for the proper interior and base engine. And you can't say it's just me and GM bashers, Lutz himself has said that car isn't up to snuff. GM simply has a history of putting out half-baked cars, so naturally the press and foreign car enthusiasts are "skeptical". This isn't as big a problem with "regular" cars, but when it comes to Luxury cars, reputation is everything. Cadillac is going to have to do a string of cars "right" before their image turns around. Audi did it with one hit after another, 1996 A4, 1997 A8, 1998 A6, and back again with the 2002 A4. None of Audi's cars were "works in progress" upon their release like the CTS is. GM simply has to stop it.
"Lexus doesn't care about the enthusiasts - it cares about its target market. "
Wow, you said a mouthful my friend. I guess thats why the IS300 hasn't been a hit huh. Your statement is exactly why Lexus didn't put the Europeans out of business like everyone said they would and thats also why I can't hardly ever see myself buying one. That said, I've come to really respect your opinion/slant on this whole luxury car thing.
Come on now, you're starting to sould like a GM exec.
Nov 05, 2002 (7:25 am)
If the target market for the car is the enthusiast then they will certainly care about the enthusiast for that particular model. But in general they have made it obvious that they don't care about the opinion of the enthusiasts.
I am very curious to see where they go with the new GS design that is due out in the spring. I haven't seen any good stories on this.
Never say never!
By the way who, in their right mind ever said Lexus would put the Germans out of business. Personally I think Lexus increased the buying interest in luxury cars among a greater percentage of the population which is actually good for everyone.
Nov 05, 2002 (12:58 pm)
The current Audi lineup has not been in production for decades. All of their current models are relativily new names. This is because of the fiasco that occurred with the Audi 100? or perhaps the 5000. I don't quite remember what their model names were with the runaway acceleration problem.
You have made some valid points - consistent sales over a period of time is a good measure. However, the Cimmarron sold quite consistently over the time period (7 years) that it was in production. Yet, everyone considers it a failure. Is Rolls Royce a complete failure? The company is now split up and owned by two german automakers.
Nov 05, 2002 (1:07 pm)
I never said that the current Audi lineup had been in production for decades. I was using the Audi A4 cabrio only as an example of advance sales causing a waiting list of a year. I was not indicating that this is any kind of sales success or longetivity, just an example of why "3,000 sales in one day" means almost nothing.
The reason the Cimmaron was a failure was because it didn't redefine the class or do anything to advance small car luxury. For Cadillac's terms, it sold poorly - they were the #1 luxury car maker at the time and 50,000 units or less a year is infitesimal.
Nov 05, 2002 (1:11 pm)
What you said in general is that for a car to be successful, a model has to be in production for decades and sell consistently. I think that is nonsense. Cadillac has been in production for a hundred years and has had great influence on the luxury car market over that time period.
Nov 05, 2002 (1:44 pm)
Cadillac's also had almost 25 years of mediocre cars, which to me indicates a consistently subpar reputation. Let's agree to disagree.
Nov 05, 2002 (1:53 pm)
I agree that Cadillac has not built the kind of cars in the last 25 years that it built in the first 75. I hope that things will improve in the next few years. However, I do not view cars that sell for $60,000+ to be a desirable goal for Cadillac. They need to make some good medium priced luxury cars (in the $40,000+ range). I now own a Seville that I paid $40,000 for and I would say that at that price the car is not badly priced. (list was over $50,000)
#1986 of 24726 Don't jump too quickly you might trip and fall on your face.
Nov 05, 2002 (4:53 pm)
I think Cadillac should concentrate on making their current cars better in every way possible before venturing out into a market where it is dominated by brands like Mercedes and Jaguar. The Seville and DeVille are essentially in the same class which doesn't make sense. The CTS, well to sum it up.. why so square?? Make sure that you have a good line of at least modestly successful models and then maybe, just maybe you can back a $75+ roadster.
Nov 05, 2002 (5:11 pm)
a 75k flagship isnt that big of a jump.
Nov 05, 2002 (10:00 pm)
I saw a CTS today with an atrocious gold package and some kind of mini-carriage roof. The car looked absolutely hideous. It's owners like this that continue to make Cadillac second-rate.