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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 10, 2006 8:24 am) The name of the game is INCOME for the manufacturers and their stockholders. Why would Lexus/Toyota want to be like BMW and sell fewer cars? On the other hand I can well see why BMW would want to be as successful as Lexus/Toyota.
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Replying to: ivan_99 (Oct 10, 2006 2:04 pm) Let's look at the obvious: The GS 450h is an absolute disaster. It got one of the worst write-ups I have ever seen in Car & Driver. With the new LS, Lexus has managed to "evolve" this vehicle backward. Compared to the outgoing LS 430, it takes the new LS 460 thirty more feet (!!) to stop the car from 70 mph, according to Car & Driver-a performance they referred to as "pitiful." Why, Lexus can't even get its act together on providing accurate acceleration data, as the 2 numbers provided by Lexus to the aforementioned magazine were both "faster" by more than 0.5 seconds! Pretty embarrassing stuff. I ask, where's the rebuttal from Lexus? Not to worry, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, or Audi A 8. Meanwhile BMW keeps rolling along with new world class vehicles that do the company proud, like the exciting 335i coupe and will soon unveil an incredibly beautiful Hanes Brief-twisting dynamic 5 Series sedan. I have never seen a BMW review in any reputable auto magazine where the BMW company had to be embarrassed by providing off the wall data as Lexus recently was. Yes, If I were a BMW board member or stock holder, I would be having very pleasant dreams. If I were a Toyota Motors stock holder or board member, I would be going to Walmart and stocking up on that $4 generic Ambien.
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 10, 2006 2:23 pm) Surely you're talking total company sales, as the 3-Series currently outsells the IS 5-1, and the 5-Series compared to the GS, well it's really not even a comparison in sales... "The name of the game is INCOME for the manufacturers and their stockholders. Why would Lexus/Toyota want to be like BMW and sell fewer cars? On the other hand I can well see why BMW would want to be as successful as Lexus/Toyota." I bit more than bragging, uh? BMW is one of the most profitable companies(behind Porsche), period, in any industry. This company is the envy of just about any company. What company you know makes styling blunders such as Bangle and infuse their cars with so much technology that an MIT grad will need to go back to finish a course just to learn the basics, yet still has the best y-o-y returns in it's class. NOBODY. If Toyota does anything remotely close to this, everyone on this board would be driving an MB, BMW, or Audi as Lexus would be non-existant. And they know this as witnessed by there restraint and carefulness in their designs. If status-quo is what you think BMW is wanting, then you're definetely barking up the wrong tree. But if you think that with the next 7-Series comes a new 750 with a new 4.6L. V8 hooked to 8-speed tranny only to hope to hang with it's competitors, then you may be on to something. Highly unlikely..
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Replying to: ivan_99 (Oct 10, 2006 2:04 pm) I doubt that. Lexus' core strengths are the RX and ES. BMW will not do cars like that. They would take down the entire brand if they did. Also, ride quality is not the sole reason people buy Lexus over another brand. BMW may eventually catch Lexus when it comes to reliability and service. However, as long as they keep "improving" their cars with things like iDrive, I don't see them swaying too many Lexus shoppers. At least not ES, RX, and LS shoppers.
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Replying to: lexusguy (Oct 10, 2006 3:33 pm) |
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Replying to: blkhemi (Oct 10, 2006 2:44 pm) |
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Replying to: hpowders (Oct 10, 2006 2:36 pm) When looking for "off the wall", HP, just read you posts! I agree. BMW will be surging ahead while Lexus, as I see it, has already begun its sad decline. With the new LS, Lexus has managed to "evolve" this vehicle backward. Compared to the outgoing LS 430, it takes the new LS 460 thirty more feet (!!) to stop the car from 70 mph, according to Car & Driver-a performance they referred to as "pitiful." Why, Lexus can't even get its act together on providing accurate acceleration data, as the 2 numbers provided by Lexus to the aforementioned magazine were both "faster" by more than 0.5 seconds! Pretty embarrassing stuff. I ask, where's the rebuttal from Lexus? Not to worry, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, or Audi A 8. Too many points, so little time!  As has been explained hundreds of times, accelerations times vary WILDLY, from venue to venue, tire to tire, one climate or elevation to another. I've seen an LS430 tested at 5.9, and I'm sure Lexus would know if the new car was slower than the old car. The seem pretty confident, and forgive me if I'm more confident in their assessment than yours. You mention the Germans as some type of Final Solution to the Lexus Situation. You forgot that the raggedy old LS430 already beat these cars, rather handily in a 2005 C&D comparison. Look at it this way, the LS430, on an off day, is as good a car as any German ubersedan, mostly because it's smart enough not to p--- off it's owner, someone the Germans don't seem to care about.  If you see evidence of a "sad decline", and that's your argument, than please tell me what Lincoln is in? Lexus' main problem is they are getting to popular to fast! And the better they get, the more they sell! Where does it end? How many sales records do they intend to break anyway? Audi never really got high enough to "decline", did they? Think they wish they has Lexus' problems? BMW does build World Class vehicles, but if you can't see that Lexus does as well, that says a lot. I have no problem complimenting Mercedes or BMW. They are rather incredible marques. You like to lump Auid's A8 in with them, but I haven't seen a wave of agreement here, or in the press. But...... there's a new Sheriff in town.....  DrFill
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 10, 2006 12:41 pm) I dont know what Dr. Z speech Blkhemi is referring to but it appears the urea bladder is MB's 50 State solution. The EPA had issues with the bladder but now it appears that they have become more leanient and will accept it. Here is a blurb from a current Fortune Magazine: To pass the strictest air-quality rules, part two of Mercedes' plan involves adding a small tank of urea, an ammonia-like fluid that further neutralizes pollution. The EPA's Oge says that while the agency has been leery of emissions systems that require maintenance, it will back Mercedes' approach. SOURCE:Fortune The Honda solution appears superior than the Blutec solution since they will be able to pass the emissions requirement for every State without a urea bladder: Honda - a company long associated with hybrids - announced a catalytic-converter breakthrough that requires no fluid additives, saying it will deliver 50-state models by 2009. |
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 10, 2006 7:08 pm) Anyhow, on the decline of Lincoln, we can both agree. I pray when I get picked up to go to the airport that it will not be one of those dreadfully ostentatious, seedy, stretched to the max Lincolns with 12 bottles of booze staring me in the face at 5AM! But sure enough, it always is! I hope you are correct in your analysis, and I look forward to reading what some of the other big auto mags say about the braking and acceleration of the new LS. Wish they would hurry up. Even though I am a BMW man at heart, I want the new LS to succeed since it will force the others to improve and we all benefit. Hence, my frustration concerning the C&D findings. Let's go, Mets!!! 
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 10, 2006 8:24 am) This part: While I maintain that Lexus is not equivalent to BMW, I do think they could close the gap, over time. And, Lexus will take some increased market share from those buyers that are not as brand loyal, and from those that do not fully appreciate the special nature of BMW vehicles. Is what I meant by Lexus taking the BMW pretenders or wannabes. Lexus will take some from this group for sure, no doubt so I think we're on the same page here as we are most of the time. Heck even I like the IS350, but would I take it over a 335i? Nope. I never underestimate Lexus, and try not to overestimate them either. For BMW, Mercedes, and others, it would be foolish to ever turn their back on Lexus, however. It would also be foolish to let Lexus overly distract or derail them (BMW, Mercedes, etc.) from their own directions. I agree totally, and I think BMW and Mercedes have learned enough in the U.S. market not to blow Lexus off in Europe. Once Lexus gets some serious diesels and creates more European friendly designs they'll gain market share in Europe too, no doubt. M
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