Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#19655 of 24723 Re: Finally a threat to BMW? [mariner7]
Oct 08, 2006 (7:13 pm)
This is conjecture and based more on conspiracy theories than actual information. It is a stupid article at best considering some of the moronic comments by the the magazine CAR. It states that Dr. Piech would use the Porsche 25 per cent stake in VW (it is actually at 21 per cent, with an option to take 25 per cent)to launch a bid for the whole VW Group and replace Dr. Pischetsrieder with current Porsche boss, Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking. This makes reasonable sense, but the unknown scribe then loses the plot and suggests that Piech would spin off Lamborghini to protect Porsche. If there is concern about Lamborghini's success then surely it is better to take the profit rather than give it to a competitor? Furthermore, the article maintains that Pischetsrieder is out of favour because of "...his failure to protect VW from Audi's excessive migration into every niche imaginable...someone will have to be to strong enough to check Audi's exuberance which reaches critical mass with the forthcoming R8, a car so evocative in threatens to make Lamborghinin obsolete." This is plain stupid and false! Without Audi's success and ascendence, the VW Group would be in real trouble and the writer obviously does not understand the brand business or human nature I would venture. People who buy Audis do so because they want the brand, and no matter how good a VW may be, it is not an Audi. As you see the A3 is quite a success with its premium position. The person wants to be seen in an Audi. Audi's profit continues to soar and Morgan Stanley has stated that Audi is right on target to meet all its goals. CAR is notorious for its anti-Audi tribble and its kissing a$$ of BMW. So, these strange writings are expected from them.
Also, Audi has taken Lamborghini from sales of 300 unreliable cars to nearly 2000 in just five years, suggesting that Audi does know something about the supercar market yet alone the its own premium status. Audi Czar Dr. Winterkorn knows exactly what he is doing and VW and Porsche know it.
#19656 of 24723 Re: More reality check on LS460 vs. S-Class [drfill]
Oct 08, 2006 (7:18 pm)
After claiming a 5.4 time, C&D actually found it to be a disappointing 6.0 flat.
I won't be able to accurately determine this for myself at the "Taste", but my 545 is around 5.4, so I know what it feels like to be that fast, and I will be able to tell if the LS is closer to the 5.4 as claimed or the 6.0 that C&D found.
I wouldn't bet on Jack Nicholas either. He lives several blocks away and has a 23 handicap, but he has won a few club tournaments and wears a genuine Relox to prove it.
#19657 of 24723 Re: This is hilarious [tagman]
Oct 08, 2006 (7:22 pm)
And there is no problem with that. I can go with that. But, as long as we remember it is an "opinion" and not a fact. For example, everyone states how great a Lexus interior is. I have yet to see reality match that opinion. But then I am bias, so you see how the circle continues.
#19658 of 24723 Re: Finally a threat to BMW? [reality2]
Oct 08, 2006 (8:16 pm)
The 7-Series (well that is not a real HELM), but for the most part, the S-Class achieves what MB wanted it to do.
The 7 series is not a real HELM
IMO the A8L is no HELM if the 7 series is no HELM. Your opinions and my opinions dont really matter one bit since the world knows that both the A8 and 7 Series are real HELMs.
CAR is notorious for it anti-Audi tribble and its kissing a$$ of BMW.
CAR and almost every major auto magazine in the world kisses BMW a$$. Why? Is it a conspiracy? Are most auto journalists under control from Bavaria? Or are the majority of auto journalists ignorant about cars? No, no and no again. Is it maybe because BMWs are really that good? Maybe?
This whole idea that most opinions among auto journalists are drivel is mainly held by disgruntled individuals whose favorite cars are not favored by the press. Maybe you will change your mind when Audi manages to improve the reviews of their cars . In that case I assume you would consider auto journalists far more objective.
At the end of the day the most important reviewer is the car buyer/leaser himself. But that does not in anyway diminish the role of a good auto reviewer. Most of us in this forum read auto mags for a reason and it is certainly not to waste our time. There are many good auto magazine reviewers that do provide valuable and different perspectives about a car.
Oct 08, 2006 (8:22 pm)
I like the Tiger/Nicholas analogy because it compares the acknowledged standard of excellence against the upstart, the Next Great One. I didn't use it to compare Nicholas today to Tiger today.
If you asked Tiger Woods who is the greatest golfer ever, he'd say Jack, no question. Lexus would give Mercedes the same respect.
The S550 is the "benchmark". Period. Ok? Not disputing that.
Is that the end of the story? I think not.
All I know about the two cars is the LS was more tasteful and elegant, especially out back, after seeing them together.
My "extreme remarks" were always qualified with Maybe, or words to that effect. Again, the car isn't out yet. The LS always competes well against ANY luxury car, because it has been that good.
All I'm sayin' is the LS460 has all the ingredients to be the new "benchmark".
What was the Toyota Camry before the 1992 redesign? The Camry is now the standard, ever since.
That might be a more "balanced" Camry comparison, because that may not be so far-fetched.
I will drive the LS460, and hopefully the S550, on the 29th.
#19662 of 24723 Re: Finally a threat to BMW? [dewey]
Oct 08, 2006 (8:50 pm)
That's why even though the LS review from C&D has been especially disappointing, after some initial hesitation, I do intend to drive the LS next month and find out for myself.
If nothing else, it will give me some insight as to where the Lexus posters are coming from.
It would be nice if all regular posters here would test drive as many of the HELM offerings that we discuss here as they can so we can compare notes.
#19663 of 24723 Re: Finally a threat to BMW? [hpowders]
Oct 08, 2006 (8:56 pm)
I wont. I will have to wait until I reach an age where a stick and a stiff sporty rideis no longer important to me.
Hopefully my great grand children will give me a soft riding luxury car during my 100th birtday.
Oct 08, 2006 (9:08 pm)
if you are going to mention one of the greatest golfers of all time, at least take the trouble to look up the correct spelling of his name: It's Nicklaus, not Nicholas.