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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Doc, As hard as it is to get into this comp thing again, I realize that the LS460 is new enough to deserve some discussion and to be put into a proper and realistic perspective. While I make every effort to be as moderate and respectful about Lexus as possible, there is a disconnection to the truth in your earlier post. To the typical Lexus "brand buyer", your remarks are exactly as you perceive the situation. But I've gotta tell ya . . . If you step back a notch, it becomes clear that the S-Class in particular had some of the best reviews imagineable . . . consistently I might add . . . and it has already established itself as the benchmark. The possibility for the LS460(L) to come along and topple the S-Class was very real, but unfortunately for Lexus, it just has not happened. Now, this next model year will be big for Lexus and the LS460. This is completely predictable, and when you start quoting sales figures, they will be initially skewed, as ljflx has also pointed out. Comparing the cars themselves, regardless of sales data for the moment, the performance of the Lexus is without any doubt worse than the S-Class. The styling is always subjective, and while the new LS seems to be regarded as an improvement, and I also believe it is an improvement, it is not the level of styling found in the S-Class, IMO. The whiz-bang technology may have backfired on Lexus, because in reality, the self-park feature is so restricted to more than ideal conditions, that those conditions hardly exist in the real world. Where do you find an open parking spot that is so huge that you could park a delivery truck, and yet at the same time need help getting into it? It's turned out to be laughable, and the reviewers have caught on to this for what it really is . . . a gimmick. It may have been a good idea initially, but the final feature has turned out to have way too many restricitons and limitations to be very useful. Any gradient, for example, is also a no-no. The price will definately be high for the long wheelbase loaded version, and I can see the justification for consumers with an open mind, to snatch up an S-Class and enjoy the real-world benefits it offers. So far the S-Class is the acknowledged benchmark. True performance, a purposeful 7-speed tranny (not built as a market ploy to achieve the magic number 8), solid brakes, superior styling (IMO), purposeful features as opposed to gimicktry, and dare I mention the Mercedes prestige. I believe that there will be a substantial number of neutral consumers that will discover this truth, and not be swayed by marketing or gimmicks, but by the genuine realities of these vehicles. As I have said, and you know this to be true, the Lexus LS460 is a terrific car, and deserves recognition for its achievements. But when we are talking about comparing it to an S-Class vehicle . . . well . . . at that point, the truth just is what it is. Hmmm, let's see now . . . similar price . . . LS460L or S-Class? S-Class, please!  TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 08, 2006 3:03 pm) It's as if all it can provide you invalidate as some type of smoke-and-mirrors, "Magic Elixir" hustling, traveling scam show!  Lexus quotes a 5.4 time, 0-60, and 19/27 EPA. These are both as good, or better than the S550. From an engine almost 20% smaller. And still acts like a Lexus under all conditions, or maybe just a little better?  If you can refute these numbers as inaccurate, let me know. "First Drives" and such have always been informal, and nothing to bet the farm on. I can site many instances when a car had a rather poor "First Drive" or test, or the numbers didn't come out right, and then came up big in a upcoming comparison. Since the car has not hit production yet, nor has been in a comparison, now is not the time to call the LS on the carpet. To show that level of alacrity, and efficiency, the 8-speed is a great value, and MUST work as advertised! A full-blown comparison will show us all what an LS460 can do, and if anyone has learned from history, Lexus should get the benefit of the doubt, which obviously hasn't happened here. I'd be interested to see how many people on this board have stood next to both cars, at the same time. Not seen them at the same venue, but actually side-by-side? I have, which brought about my comment. The 7 and the LS were not side-by-side, doh.  If the LS, as you admitted, deserves recognition for it's achievements, than handing over anything to the S-Class is contrary to that statement. The truth is what it is? The truth is the LS460 maybe BETTER than the S-Class, due to it's value, looks, and impeccable track record. There really is only one way to find out, and we haven't gotten there, yet. Betting on Jack Nicholas is always a great bet. My money's on Tiger Woods. If it ever came down to it.  DrFill
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Replying to: drfill (Oct 08, 2006 3:28 pm) Read your earlier post today. It literally screams for some balance, which I am more than willing to provide. You essentially threw some extreme remarks out into this forum as bait, and we can see the result it had. So, I see the need for some balance. You basically have stated the superiority of the LS460 as fact. The real fact is that the S-Class has been acknowledged as the benchmark. That everyone should agree on. Until the LS460(L) is determined to have toppled it, the S-Class remains the benchmark. It's that simple. Perhaps the major comps will come in and will by majority claim that the new LS460(L) is the new standard, having toppled the S-Class, but until that happens, there is no substance to your posting the LS460(L) as the superior vehicle, other than indicating your own early opinion. And if that's all we're talking about, then say so. Your analogy of Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods has no place here. The new '07 S-Class is a brand new vehicle, not an old seasoned one. It also happens to be the current heavyweight champion. You may think you have a great contender, as I also believe you do, but until they are actually in the ring, I am going to continue to call the S-Class the heavyweight champion that is is. That's the balance that I thought was needed here. TagMan |
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I have never seen a new auto raise such ire before it has even been officially introduced. People are spouting off that this fine auto is nothing but a piece of crap when, in fact, most of them haven't seen it, or touched it, let alone driven it. They continue to criticize this auto because it is not something that it has never tried to be. It is not a Mercedes or BMW. It is a Lexus. It doesn't need or want to be anything else. Just accept that and you will all feel better.
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 08, 2006 4:01 pm) houdini - Where's the beef? You show me those posts that you say spout off that the LS460 is nothing but a piece of crap . . . or quit posting baloney. TagMan |
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Doc and Houdini... you don't like it when the LS is criticized sight unseen, neither touched or driven. Yet it's OK for you to declare it the king of the HELMs etc. when you also haven't had so much as a sniff of it. Go back and read your posts and see if you can comprehend what you are saying.
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Replying to: designman (Oct 08, 2006 4:32 pm)
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 08, 2006 5:17 pm)  C'mon, houdini, you're crackin me up here.  And you still haven't proved your claim that people called the LS460 a "piece of crap". Man, I'm good with you loving the LS and all that, but what's going on here? TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 08, 2006 5:32 pm) 
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