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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24685 messages, Last post on Nov 02, 2009 at 4:40 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 05, 2006 9:50 am) Tagman that is a great post about diesels. But in terms of diesels the article below is a wretched fly in the ointment  : J.D. Power and Associates Reports: Problems with Heavy-Duty Truck Engines Increase as More Manufacturers Employ New Emission Standards WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 5 October 2006 -As manufacturers of heavy-duty truck engines strive to meet government-regulated emission standards by implementing new emission technologies, customers are increasingly experiencing problems with their engines, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Heavy-Duty Truck Engine/Transmission StudySM released today. The study, now in its 10th year, measures customer satisfaction with the engines in two-year-old heavy-duty trucks (Class 8) by examining four vital engine factors. They are (in order of importance): engine quality (30%); engine performance (26%); engine cost of ownership (22%); and engine warranty (22%). The study examines engines supplied in 2004 model-year trucks, the second model year impacted by the Consent Decree that raised diesel engine emission standards. To meet emission regulations, manufacturers are continuously redesigning engines and employing new technologies, such as redirecting exhaust gas back into the engine to burn off more pollutants. Consequently, the average number of reported engine problems has increased to 74 PP100 (engine problems per 100 vehicles)-up from 46 PP100 in 2005. I know this article is about trucks and not cars. But diesel cars will have the same challenges as trucks with emissions technology and they may end up being less reliable. This is a big issue especially for MB, Audi and BMW. These three marques are already struggling to improve their quality/reliability rankings in North America. Their new low emission diesels will be more complex and are likely to be more vulnerable to malfunctions. Based on CR and JD Powers hybrid cars are top ranked. There appears to be no major reliability issues with hybrids. This in itself can be considered an advantage for Lexus hybrids since as we all know the perception of reliability is an important factor for many buyers.
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My opinion is I'm pleased with the LS460L pricing, and the SWB should be near $65k, so it does indeed represent incredible value, especially against cars like 750i. The LS460L is aggressively priced, and is right on top of the 750iL. This may add feul to Tag's fire on that note. I don't think Lexus is after BMW customers any more or less than they are after Mercedes customers. I believe Lexus' priority is to replace Mercedes as the preeminent luxury marque in the US. With that in mind, I would price the 600 right on top of the S550, and see what shakes out. This would increase market awareness and brand image, and maybe Lexus will sell more than 2-3k hybrids. It's as good a time as any to find out if this luxury hybrid class has legs or not. If Lexus can sell more than 3k 600h a year, than the model is a success, IMHO. Considering I predicted a 10/15 launch date, and a 10/2 price release date, I'd say I was accurate enough. The LS460L is VERY well-equipped, and the 750i is in for a long 2007. Std NAV makes the spread $10k. A novel approach, since it is extremely rare for NAV to be standard on any car, HELM or not. Considering the low price on the SWB, 30k sales is a low-ball estimate. 40 is more accurate, and 45-50k is not out of the question in '07! Regarding this best-dressed list, move the LS up to #2, behind the Jag! Germany makes many cars better looking than these! But my favorite will always be the 1995 BMW 740/750iL.  And the current SL is pretty sweet! But Lexus is learning how to style-and-profile! There goes the neighborhood!  DrFill
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 06, 2006 7:39 pm) Problems with Heavy-Duty Truck Engines Increase as More Manufacturers Employ New Emission Standards Dewey, there is one significante difference . . . up until several days ago, October 1st, the sulphur in diesel fuel was a major component, but is now reduced to somewhere around 5%. Previous generations of emissions control had to work around all that sulphur, which is no longer the case. New ballgame. Say hello to BlueTec and the future of diesels. TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Oct 06, 2006 10:23 pm) The lower sulphur content may do wonders for our environment but it will not neccessarily be good for a diesel engine. This article I linked relates to trucks but is also relevant for autos (HELM and non-HELM). The Europeans luxury marques and Honda/VW are not only developing complex emissions technologies but also developing complex technologies to avoid engine damage. This added complexity in diesel engines may make them more vulnerable to malfuncitions. Whether that is the case or not we will have to wait and see (in a few years we will see MB Blutec reliability stats): Trucking fleets around Australia are reporting a rash of fuel-related seal failures linked to the recent introduction of diesel fuel with a lower sulphur and aromatics content. The seals in question are fuel injection and throttle-shaft O-rings and gaskets made with a rubber compound. Some of these seals are reportedly failing after as little as 3 weeks exposure to the new low sulphur diesel fuel. Engines with rotary injector pumps use diesel for lubrication, as contrasted with in-line pumps which use crankcase oil. As a result, engines with rotary pumps are, at this time, the hardest hit. The problems are apparently an unexpected result caused by the fuels mandate which has taken effect. On 1 January 2000, Western Australia became the first state in Australia to achieve “Euro II” (Low Sulphur) standards in diesel fuel and to eliminate lead from petrol. link title
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Replying to: blkhemi (Oct 06, 2006 6:49 am) BTW, you do realize this is the wrong forum? unless the Accord and Camry all of a sudden became high end lux marques.
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Replying to: maxhonda99 (Oct 07, 2006 6:20 am)
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Replying to: pat (Oct 07, 2006 6:25 am) |
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 07, 2006 4:53 am) I am a bit suspicious about the article that you linked, as it was authored by the B100 product company that markets the solution to the "problem" that they are focusing on. But, if true, then there are clear measures that can be taken, both in the manufacturing methods of the engines, with regards to sealant properties and composition, and also with the fuel itself. The lower acidity of the newer fuel was noted in the article as a positive attribute, but it seems the major concern is its the lower lubricating properties. This is extrememly interesting, however, and the bottom line here is that it does indeed raise the concern level, as you were initially pointing out. Time will tell if the difficulties indicated in the article with regards to heavy duty diesel engines and the use of low sulphur fuel have any real relationship to the auto diesel engines that will be forthcoming. Gosh, I sure hope for the best, because if there are failures similar to the ones cited, then the trend towards diesels could essentially be undermined. This is worthy of more investigation and discovery, IMO, and if you find any more information about this as it relates to the CAR diesels and the low sulphur fuel, please post it. I, for one, would be most interested. At this point, however, I remain very optimistic and excited about the forthcoming diesel engine options that we will be seeing within just another model year or two. Thanks for the post! TagMan |
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Replying to: dewey (Oct 07, 2006 4:53 am) More follow up to your post, please. Complexity in terms of the technology involved to create the solution? . . . or, are you saying that the engine itself is becoming more "complicated" somehow. The reason I am asking is that complex technology could be utilized to create what is ultimately a "simple" or "non-complicated" solution. Generally, diesel engines are not all that complicated. So, are you referring to some major complex engine component that is now an inherent part of the engine? I mean a new generation particulate filter doesn't strike me as complex even if the technology to develop it is. A new generation of a catalytic exhaust component doesn't strike me as complicated, even it its unique individual manufacturing process is complicated. So, what specifically are you referring to that is so complex or complicated that it might be subject to increased failure? TagMan
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