Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#1953 of 24726 wishnhigh1
Oct 30, 2002 (5:57 am)
"Beat them how? In the opinions of Magazine editors? You yourself has denied
the value of magazine comparisons, because of the strong desire to compare
everything to BMW. So what else is there? "
Obviously you haven't been paying attention, I said that I'm tired of magazines ranking cars below BMWs soley because of handling. If you read some of my other posts I usually more or less agree with MOST comparo's. In the case of this class of cars (SC430, SL500, XK8/R and XLR) handling isn't going to be as big of a deciding factor and better yet BMW isn't even competing in this class. Pay closer attention.
Nieman Marcus can sell anything in a hot moment. When the XLR goes 3 years with constant sales it will be a success. The list of fallen-off cars at these prices is a long one, SC400, NSX, 850Ci etc and you can probably add the SC430 to the list by 2004. The previous SL didn't have such a problem, with 1997 (it's 8th(!) model year) being it's best year. Thats success.
"Audis are cutting edge in All-wheel drive and looks to be a contender in a few years but shared platforms a little too much like VWs."
What is the disadvantage of this? Audi and VW are far more seperated than others who do the same thing, including Lexus, Cadillac and Acura. And Audi is a "contender" right now, easily ahead of everyone except MB, BMW and arguably Lexus.
"Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from Asian like Lexus and Acura."
To some that may be so, but for those who like Mercedes it's all the more reason to want the "original". I'm not sure how your remarks can be seen as racist though, Acura and Lexus are Asian cars. I'm lost on that one.
Oct 30, 2002 (9:39 am)
Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition".
As far as comparisons and your terms of success...we'll just have to wait and see. All your comments are pure speculation. I predict the best...in fact, I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years.
Oct 30, 2002 (2:19 pm)
O.K., I see what you meant now when you explained what you meant. Though I misunderstood when I was reading earlier in your post. Anyway, lets move talking about cars.
Can you enlightened us on the connotation of what the letters stand for? Remember in the CTS topic of how screwed up the Cadillac naming has been. Now what does C in "C Class", E and S in model classes stand for. I think if I recall you said SL stands for "small light" or sport light".
On the Phaeton and new A8, the side profile looks very similar. However, I don't think I would spend $70,000 on it and I could get the A8. By the looks of the pictures, I am not too sure I really like the looks of the car (A8). I prefer the current A8 model which is very classy and elegant. The Phaeton to me is a touring car that is not sporty at all but on the inside, it is in another league of its on. Also too, I think the current A4 is gorgeous. I can see myself in this car as well. I don't know if you agree or not but is it me or is it that every time I use the word gorgeous about cars, cars look better and more stylish each generation. Don't you seem to agree. I used that word on various Cadillacs, on the SL and now on the A4.
#1956 of 24726 Neiman Marcus XLR
Oct 30, 2002 (2:26 pm)
Neiman Marcus selling out of XLR's means nothing.
Remember, Neiman Marcus also sold a version of the Thunderbird. And they sold them out quickly also. How is the Thunderbird doing now? It sure doesn't have a 1-year waiting list.
The C-class, E-class, and S-class designations don't really mean anything. The C, E, and S, basically designate where the car is in the model hierarchy. C would be below E, E would be below S. It is similar to what BMW does except with they do it with number designations.
#1957 of 24726 Who cares about Name
Oct 30, 2002 (5:04 pm)
Neiman Marcus can do whatever he wants to the XLR but it still will be a Cadillac. Remember all cadillac's are, are nicer varients of Chevy GMC and oldsmobile's. For me im sticking to my 03 SL63.
#1959 of 24726 wishnhigh1
Oct 30, 2002 (6:35 pm)
"Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition"."
And that means what? Cadillacers are touting that the Nieman Marcus XLR sold out so fast, and I'm basically saying that means nothing.
"I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years."
Also pure speculation.
Well Maxhonda touched on it, and he's basically right. The "E" used to mean gasoline when they put the E after the engine size, like 300E, D was for diesels as in 300D. Now as per the last time they were laid out for me, they meant Compact (C), Executive (E) and Super for (S). Now SL, and SLK, CLK all have more meaning. Coupe, Short, Light, for CLK. Sport Light, is for SL, Coupe Light is for CL. All of this is translated from German words.
A SL63? Care to explain that one to me?
Nov 01, 2002 (11:30 am)
I merely bought up a Nieman Marcus thing to show that there is a buzz about the car and that people were willing to pay $15K over the likely sticker price to get one. I didn't think merc1 would start analyzing this thing to death. Even if every other NM car sold out the fact is this is the most expensive of the models offered thus far and it sold out far faster than any of the other cars. The car will sell and the fact that it's a cadillac may help it because it makes it seem exclusive. Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car. Like wishnight, I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match. These cars are all competent and luxurious, our point is that the XLR will be among the top two in luxury, performance and innovation. This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that. If MB can charge $90K for the Sl500 then Cadillac can charge $70K for the XLR. Niether car is worth that much and anyone who puts that much money into a car isnt making the wisest investment. The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car. If the XLR is up to snuff then people who aren't in love with Euro imports will consider the car. Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac and that's fine, but you cant assume that rational people in the market wouldn't look at and BUY the damn car basedon its merits. If you have a personal preference that is fine but do not try and use (il)logical arguments to justify your position.
also, merc1 don't insult me by acting like I have recently converted to your school of thinking. I have never said that Cadillac's image (image not being synonomous reality) is superior to audi, BMW or MB. I don't know why you are so shocked. I have a thorough understanding of the market and you know that so dont act like I am so pro-cadillac that I would ignore basic truths of the luxury car industry.
There are numerous Audi, BMW and MB models that I would like to own, but the fact remains that I am rooting for the underdog and I hope that one day they can no longer be considered an underdog. If not following the herd makes me a "cadillacer" as you have so eloquently called us, than so be it. Now you know much more than the average import fanatic (and you dont like Lexus which is a plus) but let's be honest it isn't hard to go around praising the guys on top. Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall.
#1961 of 24726 The Art of Paying Attention
Nov 01, 2002 (3:03 pm)
"Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car."
It's been in the news for more than 2 years. The problem is RWD should have come around a decade ago. It should not have taken this long. I'm excited about the car also, it's the only Cadillac so far that wears the new design theme well, and corvette underpinnings don't hurt either. What sucks is the plastic body panels. GM's choice of skinning should have been aluminum.
"I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match."
If I remember properly(I'm paying attention), you are the one who started the boxing match. I can reference back to the "next year Cadillac is going to run past Lexus in sales." statements made repeatedly. Also, statements along the lines of "When is Lexus going to compete model to model with Benz & BMW" thereby, implying Cadillac does compete model to model with anyone.
"This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that."
Actually, no it isn't. Cadillac has built Crap all thru the 90s. The last time Cadillac's rep was golden was in the 60's(?), it certainly hasn't had a good rep since Mercedes, BMW started exploding with models in the early 90s and since Lexus & Infiniti came on the scene.
"The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car."
You have it all wrong here. The badge does set part of the price, otherwise a SL500 wouldn't cost $90,000. The badge on the front of a S600 also allows Mercedes to sell it and sell it for a premium. If you stuck a Cadillac badge on a S600, and tried to sell it for even $10K less, very few would buy it. The point is, Badge does set price, partially.
Of course the SL500 with Miata features wouldn't cost $90K, because then it wouldn't be a SL500. The features of the SL500, as well as the ownership experience, the reputation of Mercedes, the build quality, and the Prestige factor is what makes it cost $90K.
"Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac"
The proper word would be "wouldn't" not "would".
Actually, I would love to be behind the wheel of a XLR, if it does compete with cars like the SC430, SL500, XK8. The art & science theme works on the XLR, unlike the CTS which is a big positive. If it drives luxuriously, handles well, has outstanding build quality(Something that has eluded Cadillac), and competes, I would take a XLR over a SC430. Of course at the price Cadillac is hoping to charge for the car, it better be a much better car than the SC430 for example.
"Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall."
So, I am assuming you were a 8th grader chauferred to school in a in your mom's Cimarron and that's where your "Cadillac is King" attitude is from.
#1962 of 24726 Look folks
Nov 01, 2002 (7:22 pm)
There is WAY too much emphasis on personal, uncivil and disruptive disagreements going on here.
There are folks here who persist in posting messages which do nothing more than attack. There is NO less productive way to get your point of view heard. If the point of a posted message is nothing more than an attack of another poster, NO one is going to ponder for one second the perspective you wish to bring to the conversation.
As I have previously noted, this discussion has a history of intelligent, reasonable and NON-attacking debate. We need to find a way to get back there, and we need to do it now.
The childish back-biting and name-calling that has been occurring here is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated any longer.
Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to email me if you have any questions or further comments.