Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#19146 of 24726 Re: More on the Panamera [tagman]
Sep 23, 2006 (6:23 pm)
The Cayman version of the Boxster has turned out to be the true star, simply because the engine is in the right position for better balance.
Cayman and Boxster engines are in the same position and balance is identical at 45/55 front/rear. You must be talking about both Boxster and Cayman as compared with the 911 Carrera which is 38/62. The Boxster S has garnered impeccable reviews ever since its launch in 2000, punctuated by its beating a Ferrari Enzo in the slalom. The fact that the Cayman S outperforms the Boxster S is of no real consequence to the latter since one is a coupe and the other a roadster, two versions of the same car.
And look at the price difference between the Cayman and the 911. There is little justification any more. Has the 911 gotten too pricey, or is the Cayman a bargain? Either way, it's out of whackÖ
Not really. Porsche has always charged for horsepower as diamonds are charged by the karat. On top of that there is a premium for the 911 badge but itís not that much, more if you consider that the 911 probably costs less to make. But power is really the price unit.
One problem I see with the Panamera, which dissapoints me because I've had my eye on it for quite some time, is that it will not look extraordinary. It's already a foregone conclusion that it's appearance will not be shockingly beautiful, as I think it could and should be.
Well your opinion of the styling is your prerogative but itís too early to gauge. You canít go by the official Porsche sketch and you canít go by the spy shots of the mule. Itís just too early to be commenting on a model that will be released for the 2010 model year. Weíre very early in the game. Also, if you are a Mercedes person, this is a strong indication of your preferences. They are too different. Just as there are 911 people and SL people and never the twain shall meet, I expect the Panamera and CLS to be the same type of deal. There is going to be a feral Porsche-ness about it.
I anxiously await tremendous power for the Cayman so that one day it can "be all that it can be". Now THAT will be a new benchmark, IMO.
This is a common lament among Porsche enthusiasts. What we forget is that there is a lot to choose from among 911ís and that ďall it can beĒ is something that has much greater significance among track rats. The 911 Turbo and C4s are closer to that ideal with balance and is plenty of car for average enthusiasts who donít track their cars. Furthermore, when and if the mid-engine Porsches are ďall they can beĒ, they will be priced in the league of 911sóthere is no way around it.
Now I could be wrong about my assessment of Panamera, after all, Porsche has learned how to become more profitable. This can preclude fulfillment of product expectations among the cognoscenti. But that company has some big egos, a big heritage, and has lived up to its reputation. Could it bomb? Sure. Just as Lexus reliability can also go south. But Lexus is Lexus and Porsche is Porsche. As the legend goes, excellence is expected and accordingly I remain optimistic until convinced otherwise.
In the meantime, what about that Elise? I would like to hear about it. The Lotus section is dead. Could you spare a word or two, especially after all of the talk about Fords, GM and whatnot around here recently?
#19147 of 24726 Re: More on the Panamera [designman]
Sep 23, 2006 (7:30 pm)
Nice reply thank you.
I know that the Cayman is a coupe version of the Boxster, and that they are essentially the same car. Even though this is the case, the Cayman has an important advantage. Not being a ragtop, it is much more rigid and stable. I truly loved my original Boxster, although I was envious when the S came out, because the original lacked power.
Also, yes I agree that additional ponies from Porsche have traditionally come at an expected premium.
I dearly miss my air-cooled 911 sometimes, though, even if it did not perform up to today's water-cooled powerplants.
I know it is early on the Panamera, as I posted, but it is difficult to avoid forming early opinions as information leaks out. I think part of the problem for me is that I have had very big expectations of the Panamera. After all, it is a beloved Porsche. But as I indicated, the early stuff just isn't getting my blood going yet. We'll have to wait and see.
Thanks for asking about the Elise. I just got an invitation to a high performance driving event at Infineon Raceway (Sears Point) from the Lotus/Lamborghini dealer that I purchased it from. My schedule looks like there could be a conflict, but I've been told that there will be additional invitations over time. Sounds like a blast.
The Elise Sport is so much fun to drive. Just raw fun. I've had it up to about 130 mph so far, and I've pushed some corners real hard. I still have not truly discovered the cornering limits yet. It just takes turns like glue. That's really where this Lotus shines, IMO . . . in the turns.
No real problems to speak of, although I experienced a slight rear brake shutter when cold recently. I'm not sure it is important, but I will mention it to the dealer anyway.
Otherwise, the Toyota powerplant spins like a top, and does not want to stop.
I let one of my good friends drive it, and he was yelling "yahoo" when we were done. He then truly stopped his deal on his second 911 and bought the exact same car as mine, the Limited Elise Sport. His is car number 43. Mine is number 5 (out of 50 worldwide). He traded in his first 911, which he was originally going to trade-in on his next 911. Our cars look like twins. True story.
Here's my car (from Edmunds pics):
BTW, it looks like Lotus is about to release some new magic soon.
Here's the article, too:
#19149 of 24726 Re: Ford of Europe blatantly rips off Mercedes [lexusguy]
Sep 23, 2006 (9:56 pm)
Well, the new Mondeo was mainly designed in Cologne, Germany and even thou the interior takes form MB I guess this car would make a great addition to Mercury as an entry level luxury brand of Lincoln.
#19150 of 24726 Re: More on the Panamera [tagman]
Sep 24, 2006 (8:17 am)
Thatís quite a story with your friend canceling his 911 order. Now Iím psyched to go test drive it. I am thinking about replacing my 02 Boxster S and am not sure what I want. Leading a healthy list is an 07 Boxster S but the others are close behind. When the Elise first came over here, just sitting in one talked me out of the test drive in addition to listening to other experiences of dual Porsche/Elise owners, but now you have stoked my curiosity again. Of course the question is what my tolerance could be for that extreme.
#19151 of 24726 Re: More on the Panamera [designman]
Sep 24, 2006 (8:39 am)
D-man, The Elise is a bit extreme, no doubt, but it largely depends upon your needs . . . if you need a more comfy and civilized vehicle that still provides plenty of exhileration, it is hard to beat the Boxster/Cayman. And the price is still appropriate for those models, IMO.
I am always confident to recommend a Porsche to someone, but to recommend the Elise . . . well, it really has to be a very personal decision that comes with a different set of pros and cons. You really have to buy it for all that it gives, and be willing to overlook some of the inconveniences.
Depending upon your situation, you also may have to consider your passenger.
Anyway, test drive it where you are allowed to really push it hard.
You'll have fun anyway, and you'll understand the vehicle, whether or not you purchase one.
If you want or need to go for the safer bet, it is almost impossible to go wrong with the Porsche.
Keep me posted, as I'd really like to hear about your experience if you drive one, and drive it hard. And if you have any specific questions about the Elise, there's a good chance I can answer or at least point you in the right direction for the answer.
#19152 of 24726 Re: More on the Panamera [tagman]
Sep 24, 2006 (11:30 am)
Thanks. I'll let you know what develops.
#19153 of 24726 Re: Panamera caught testing [merc1]
Sep 24, 2006 (5:39 pm)
Right you are. I was focusing on a "base" Panamerica competing with a 5 Series/E Class etc and I'm now not sure that there will be a "base" Panamerica for around 60K. A sales guy at the Providence (RI) Porsche dealer thinks the price point will be around 125K and include V10 power.
#19154 of 24726 some diesel news
Sep 24, 2006 (5:45 pm)
Honda....announced plans to launch in the U.S. by 2009 a sedan -- probably a Honda Accord -- powered by a "super clean," four-cylinder diesel system....
Honda said the system, unveiled over the weekend at the company's Tochigi technical center north of Tokyo, is as clean as the most advanced gasoline engines. They expect it to meet the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's tough Tier II Bin 5 diesel-emission regulations, as well as even more-stringent standards for California. That would mean Honda vehicles equipped with the new system could be sold in all 50 U.S. states.
....Honda's system uses a newly designed catalytic converter with a two-layer structure. One layer absorbs NOx from the exhaust gas and converts some of it into ammonia. The other layer uses that ammonia in a chemical reaction that turns the remaining NOx into harmless nitrogen.
This means the Honda system doesn't need a big, separate tank for urea, making the system simpler and more compact. In addition, the user won't have to top up the system with urea to make the engine run properly.
#19155 of 24726 Re: some diesel news [syswei]
Sep 24, 2006 (6:04 pm)
I'll consider that Honda's newly developed catalytic converter is patented, and there might be licensing agreements in order for others to use it.
It is the solution needed to satisfy the urea issue.
Thanks, syswei, for the info.