High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.


#1806 of 24723 It's not a matter of opinion -- it's research and facts by footie

Oct 20, 2002 (5:11 pm)

On initial quality, year in and year out, Lexus, particularly the LS430 is the winner. It's initial defect level for the last 4 years was about 1/6th of what the MB are. In everyone of those years the entire Lexus line has swept the JDPower Initial quality awards.
 
On Reliability, there is also no comparison. Consumer Reports ranks Lexus as Exceptional Reliability for the ES, GS, LS and RX.
 
If you go to Consumer Reports, who has the largest, best instrumented test facility in North America for new and used cars and best tracking system for in-service problems, the Mercedes product line is only of Average Reliability, and that in good years. There is a lot of variance in the MB reliability too.
 
In recent years the E was rated 1997 98 - Below Average, 99 - 00 Average, 01 - Below Average.
 
Fortunately for the E fans, it has a the best, most recent reliability and quality of the entire MB line. The 2000 - S (1st year of the marquee model ) was rated poor. The M class trucks, like the BMW X5, are rated poor and on the 'dont buy list'.
 
There is much to like about a Benz. Like a BMW, Audi or Lexus in their respective classes, each has it's own cache and appeal. You may prefer the look and feel and layout of the dash, the seats, the tint of the moonroof, whatever. Some like the way individual cars feel, accelerate or handle.
 
But Mercedes doesn't lead in quality or reliability and hasn't for some time. It's not likely that they ever will again, either.

#1807 of 24723 Read what I wrote... by glamourlife

Oct 20, 2002 (7:28 pm)

I never said MB leads in reliability! I agree that the Lexus has been a reliability star for years. But again, reliability and durability are not the same thing. I am not blinded to German cars only. I have owned several makes and models, and through my close friends I have experience with just about every luxury car out there.
 
I like Lexus cars for the value they represent. I have repeatedly said that they offer tremendous value and reliability. 3 years ago when I was looking for a new family vehicle, I got the LX470. It was and is a great truck, but it is far from perfect.
 
 The first week I had it it began to rattle from within the gear selector. Several visits to the dealer did not cure the sound either. It has been completely reliable and has never left me stranded, but I have learned to live with the vibrations. It is also underpowered.
 
And pcbrs, one article found from the web does not convince me of anything. I can find hundreds of articles on the new BMW's, MB's, to refute that article. Just look at the reviews on Edmunds.

#1808 of 24723 ....glamourlife... by carnaught

Oct 20, 2002 (7:54 pm)

....please show a link of one of your "hundreds of articles" on M.B. "refuting" pcbrs's article. Specifically, I'm refering to your premise of M.B.'s better materials as far as interiors are concerned as compared to Lexus. Again, I'm not asking for author's overall preference for M.B.'s over Lexus'(another subject) but specifically the post you did (#1687)regarding interiors.

#1809 of 24723 ....glamourlife... by carnaught

Oct 20, 2002 (7:57 pm)

....please show a link of one of your "hundreds of articles" on M.B.'s "refuting" pcbrs's article. Specifically, I'm not asking for an author's overall preference for M.B.'s over Lexus' (another subject), but in support of the post you did (#1687) blasting Lexus interiors. Talk is cheap.....

#1810 of 24723 Here are some "Research and Facts" by glamourlife

Oct 20, 2002 (8:18 pm)

Check out this article on the 2003 S-Class. It talks about true "Innovations" like Pre-Safe. The article asserts that the "...Even so, with the debut of the 2003 updates, the S-Class is quite likely to maintain its standing at the head of its class."

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5279&n=157,183&sid=183

While your at it, try this one...
http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5213&n=157,183&sid=183
In regards to interior it says "...The displays are quite classy, though surprisingly simple in design, especially compared to the flashy lights and graphics Japanese luxury marques have adapted. But functionally, the E-Class instrumentation is a lot easier to read." The Japanese brands do get remarks about their interior finsih still being tighter than MB, but the article concludes with "...With the new E-Class, Mercedes has pulled out all the stops. It is difficult to understate just how much of an improvement has been made in an already strong product. The 2003 E-Class clearly shows that Mercedes can build a driver’s car. In performance and handling terms, it’s still not quite a BMW, but the E-Class has plenty of other advantages that will help it maintain its edge in a tightly competitive luxury segment."

Check out this one on the new CLK...
http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5186&n=157,183&sid=183

One of the notable quotes on interior design states, "Inside, it’s luxury all the way. Leather in generous helpings adorn the seats, the door interiors, and just about everything else you look at. Handsome without glitz or gloss, the soft surfaces are waiting to be touched. In fact the entire interior-designer decor proclaims: “This is as good as it gets.” "

Here is a quote on the Lexus ES300, "...One other thing—fully kitted out as our tester was, the ES 300 becomes dang close to a $40,000 proposition—nearly BMW 5-Series territory (the base price is $31,505). At that price, in this segment, you need something more enthusiast-oriented than a dressed-up Camry. The ES 300, Lexus’ biggest seller, has always been outsold by the sportier Acura 3.2 TL by nearly a 2-1 margin. And if I were a Lexus marketer, I’d be losing sleep over the Infiniti G35."

And another on the flagship LS430 from Edmunds, "So nearly perfect is this vehicle that the few nits I have to pick seem silly, save one. For example, the plastic parking brake release exhibits too much gloss. The front passenger airbag isn't seamlessly integrated into the dash or hidden behind the lovely rosewood decorating the panel above the dual-tiered glovebox. Some climate and stereo functions are bundled with the navigation screen, ridiculous given the amount of space gone underutilized on the center stack. And the remote keyless entry fob for this premium car provides poorly marked buttons that are difficult to see in dim light.

The big surprise, however, was how much creaking, rattling and buzzing the cabin of our test vehicle exhibited. Idling at a light, I detected a barely discernable buzz from the rear headliner area. On a rough side street near our office, the interior emitted damped and low-frequency, but still evident, rattles and squeaks. A couple of sharper bumps resulted in creaking from the dash. Considering how well Lexus nailed the rest of the car, this apparent build-quality problem was truly surprising.

Derivative best describes the styling, which to my eye incorporates a combination of past and present Mercedes-Benz cues. The overall effect is pleasing, if unremarkable. I prefer the more forceful appearance of a BMW 7 Series, sleek look of a Mercedes-Benz S-Class, classic image of a Jaguar XJ8 or refined visage of an Audi A8. ...
© Edmunds.com, Inc. "

#1811 of 24723 Couldn't find the Edmund's links-- so here are a few by footie

Oct 21, 2002 (4:18 am)

Here are the links are to what Edmunds says:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/lexus/ls430/4drsedan43l8cyl5a/overview.html?id=lin0006

"What Edmunds.com Says
Provides equal (or better) refinement levels as German uber-sedans, only without the holier-than-thou attitude."

2001 LS430: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46353/article.html

And the 'first drive' of the 2001 LS 430

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/44015/article.html

It isn't perfect, just better.

#1812 of 24723 Silly... glamourlife... by pcbrs

Oct 21, 2002 (4:29 am)

Yikes-
    The examples you offer seem tenous to me, and require a biased interpretation of the reviews of MB products you offered. They are stating the interiors are luxurious and in some cases outstanding. However, you seem to be trying to use those praises to support your idea that "The LS seems all show, with no substance. Their wood seems like its Faux, and the leather, plastics, and controls are cheap shiny Toyota grade." Kind of sad.

I don't understand why you think the MB interior is so superb, considering its use of COMAND, "optional" single CD in dash, etc. Anyway, since you seem to respect EDMUNDS reviews, here's a link you should check out:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46353/article.html

The article states:

"We had to settle for the regular old Mark Levinson/navigation package. The single-disc DVD-based navigation system is notable for its excellence in ease of operation, thanks to its touchscreen and expedited processing. An interesting feature is the voice activation system."

"Ah yes, the Mark Levinson stereo system. We practically had to wipe the slobber off the dash, so enthused was our stereo evaluator. He claimed that it's the best OEM sound he's ever had the pleasure to listen to, bar none."

"Other gadgetphile lures that you don't have to pay extra for include side mirrors that not only provide puddle lamps, but also can be set to fold in automatically when you park your Lexus. The mirrors themselves tilt down when you're backing up. The center air vent can be set to automatically undulate, and we felt as if we were in a tropical locale being fanned with a giant palm frond when trying this feature out. You get xenon headlamps as standard equipment, and the wipers are rain-sensing, not merely speed-sensitive, as on the 2002 Q45."

"The LS will provide the same refinement levels as the German uber-sedans, only without the holier-than-thou attitude. And if your ingrained Puritan is nibbling upon your conscience for your flagrant disregard of your upbringing, quell it by telling it that you're driving an ultra-low emissions vehicle."

-Jeff

"Lexus was most thoughtful about storage space in the LS 430. There's a dual glovebox, each of which are sizeable. Expanding door bins allow for easy access to your things. The center console is dual-tiered, but you'll still have access to the upper tier when you open the second deeper bin. There's a sunglasses holder overhead, and a convenient 5-minute voice recorder. A double sunshade prevents the sun from unduly causing a glare."

"The incredibly comfortable driver seat offers 14-way power adjustment with lumbar control and a power height-adjustor seatbelt, which is easy to insert into its slot thanks to the illuminated buckles. Beautiful Optitron gauges provide great gauge cluster visibility, and the premium-quality California walnut wood trim and delectable leather will mollify even the most discerning of tastes. The tilt/telescoping steering wheel and the seat move out of the way for easy ingress/egress."

#1813 of 24723 Footie... by pcbrs

Oct 21, 2002 (4:31 am)

Hey- You beat me to it. Ha ha.
 
-Jeff

#1814 of 24723 What's all this fuss about ? by ejerod

Oct 21, 2002 (12:37 pm)

Ladies and Gentlemen. I own 2 of MB's finest. The 2002 S500 with AMG Sport Package, and the 2003 SL500 hardtop convertible. I also own the 2002 Lexus GS300 which I think is the best car that Lexus makes overall. All of the things you guys are arguing about are subjective. I personally didn't buy the LS430 because I think it looks too bland. IMO Lexus did the same thing that Infinity did with the Q45 before it's recent renovation. They were afraid of alienating their client base and went for safe and bland instead of being creative and going for beauty and excitement. The numbers tell the story well. The Q45 lost a huge market segment, ( and Lexus isn't meeting their sales expectations with the LS430 either. The other cars, the RX, GS, ES and SC's are selling gangbusters) . Mercedes on the other hand has been bold and a leader in not only technological innovation, ie Brake by wire technology, keyless go, radar controlled cruise control , 16 seconds to go from a hard top touring sedan to a convertible, etc. MB has led the way in styling. The S Class, E Class, SL class and others are the most stunning looking cars on the road. Are they perfect ? None of them are. I for one don't like that MB still uses cd rom technology for the nav system. At the same time I hate the looks of the LS430. It's bland and doesn't generate excitement when I look at it. The wheels on the base model LS430 look like something you'd see on a Ford Escort. The GS on the other hand looks like it performs. Exciting, quick,etc. I have the new GS 300 with the Sport Package and the shifting paddles built into the wheels. I'm still young. I'm 39 and people still card me when I go out because I look like a teen. Everywhere I go when I use the valet my cars are displayed at the front door, while the LS430's are relegated to the other end of the lot... All these cars have their pros and cons.. one has to decide what turns him/her on, and buy what he/she likes.. the opinions of others don't really matter... Happy motoring..

#1815 of 24723 Very Sensible by glamourlife

Oct 21, 2002 (1:45 pm)

Great Post Ejerod. Spoken like a person with real experience with luxury makes.
To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement