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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1744 of 2474

#17422 of 24723 Re: Everybody [blkhemi] by oac

Aug 02, 2006 (12:25 am)

Replying to: blkhemi (Aug 01, 2006 4:01 pm)
I've never ever read(and I read a lot) anything out of Germany that'll suggest a LS to be more reliable than a MB. That's not Germany's MO. Most rags there don't mention car and LS in the same sentence.
 
Typical sentiment from a Germancarfan dissing Lexus, and the LS. Read that article syswei linked yet ? Maybe you'd not like this 2004 survey in this link as well, from Germany's Autobild magazine. Notice where MB, Audi and BMW are ranked in their own home country versus Toyota ? Or how about this one link which puts your fav Audi in a lot of positive spins, but you gather reading b/w the lines that Toyota will only gain strength in Europe especially when (not if) quality/reliability starts to dominate over engineering and beauty of the German cars...

#17423 of 24723 Re: Everybody [tagman] by oac

Aug 02, 2006 (12:37 am)

Replying to: tagman (Aug 01, 2006 7:15 pm)
You know that essentially a lot has been made out of nothing. Just look at the posts.
 
Lighten up, will ya ? Did you not see the smilie in my response to Dewey ? If you don't expect such a survey to generate some heat, I guess you must be a newbie to HELM, eh ?

#17424 of 24723 Re: Cadillac's new approach [nvbanker] by lexusguy

Aug 02, 2006 (2:39 am)

Replying to: nvbanker (Aug 02, 2006 12:19 am)
I don't like their new ads ,or approach. Lincolns are no better ....are there any? Can't remember.
 
Lincoln did a tiny bit of advertising for the Zephyr, but that was it. Lincoln's sole reason for existing at this point seems to be so that executives of brands like Saab and Jag can say "hey, could be worse. We could be working at Lincoln".

#17425 of 24723 Re: Report on Japan's global production [oac] by merc1

Aug 02, 2006 (3:07 am)

Replying to: oac (Aug 02, 2006 12:08 am)
So you are essentially asking Toyota to be who they are not ! I mean, how can you fault a car business running on auto pilot as the Toyota/Lexus machine is currently on ? They have their DNA in the market, just like you correctly noted for the LS' stellar sales success - sterling reputation for quality and reliability. And that reputation makes them successful... Why change that formula ?
 
Nope not at all. I don't see why everyone who champions Toyota/Lexus thinks that making an exciting car will ruin the business end. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact if Toyota/Lexus started to cater to even a few enthusiasts their business would grow even further. Nobody is asking them to change who they are, only to remember that not everyone wants a sensible shoes transportation appliance in every category. If Toyota made a 350Z killer, a 35K Supra that looked great along with all the other positive attributes the previous Supra had I'd have one in a min! How is that hurting them? It isn't.
 
Every successful company must carve out a niche/calling card/DNA (call it whatever you like) that the market buys into. BMW has the performance/handling, ditto Porsche, Lexus is the other extreme, solid build quality, reliable machine, and luxurious to boot. Somewhere in the middle (to one side or the other) are the likes of Audi, MB, Jaguar, etc... Some are very successful at it, others struggle at it.
 
Sorry Oac but this doesn't hold any weight because Lexus doesn't hold anything "extreme" in the areas of solid build quality or luxury over Audi, BMW or Jaguar or MB, they're just more reliable. Those "others" as you say thrive in areas in which Lexus doesn't so it isn't nearly black and white as you imply with this statement.
 
Toyota sells cars that MOST people want, not ALL people. Fact is BMW and Porsche COMBINED do NOT have the profitability, market share and share size of the juggernaut called TOYOTA, despite making cars that benefit the so-called performance-biased crowd....
 
Very lopsided and downright silly to compare BMW and Porsche's balance sheet/market share with Toyota's. Uh...of course Toyota is going to make more money and have more market share than a luxury car maker like BMW and of course they'll do better than a small high-end sports car maker like Porsche...both brands sell cars for prices Toyota (and Lexus) can only dream about. However since you brought up Porsche, you should know that Porsche makes more money PER CAR SOLD than any other car company in the world. Period. BMW is also in the top 3 of this group. I'm not talking about the dollar amount, but the percentage of profit/return on each unit. Porsche is #1 in the world at this. If you're going to compare BMW and Porsche's financials overall to anyone it has to be Lexus, but does Toyota break out the financials for Lexus seperate from Toyota? Probably not. While we're talking about market share, why not look at what percentage of the sports car market Porsche has or the luxury car market that BMW has. Yes I know you'll say that Lexus is #1 here, but BMW isn't a one-market-only-wonder like Lexus. BMW's board likely couldn't be more pleased with their success. Ditto for Porsche and Honda too for that matter.
 
Personally, if I were Toyota, I'd be careful to making too many wholesale changes to my DNA...
 
You just don't get it Oac, no one is asking them to make wholesale changes to their DNA, only to remember that not everyone wants a sedan or suv. In the past Toyota has made cars like the Supra and Celica and MR2 and up until recently those cars were successful and it didn't hurt their business one bit. Surely the super smart Toyota could change some things around with those models only in order to grow their business that much more? If they can't then they're the biggest one-trick pony in the business.
 
Don't want to upset the applecart, you know... Maybe Merc1 needs a trip to Harvard Business School to better understand what makes Toyota a runaway success it is today... I am sure it will change his perception of Toyota/Lexus forever...
 
Again, the point has been missed here. What on earth does this have to do with the cars sitting on the showroom floor? No one buys a Toyota or Lexus because of their stellar business practices, though I know certain Lexus/Toyota fanatics here would like to think people do but they don't. Others have proven that you can run a succesfull, heck a highly successful business while catering to the enthusiast and I'm not even saying that is what Toyota/Lexus should do, they only need one or two models to help shed some of the stick-in-the-mud image. If you get the sensible shoes buyers and the enthusiasts in the same showroom buying different products you'd have the market truly cornered! Even LJ can see that.
 
There isn't a place on earth that I could visit outside of a Lexus or Toyota showroom with some or at least one stunning vehicle that would change my perception of Lexus or Toyota.
 
Again, having solid business end (Porsche or BMW) doesn't mean you have to have dull cars, Lexus' business would grow that much more if they had something, hell anything that lit the fire of an enthusiast. Keep the yawners like the LS/RX/ES true to form, but their is no reason why the GS, IS and that upcoming sports car have to be so dull and yawn inducing. This implication that a solid business can't be had while appealing to enthusiast, in Toyota/Lexus' case just a little not a wholesale change, is just total nonsense. Toyota has managed to do just that before even conservative types like Honda manage to do it. If Honda can do such with a cars like the S2000 or Civic Si that blows this (Toyota) theory about good business has to made or can only thrive on boring cars right out of the water!
 
All this about Toyota being a runaway success is a double-edged sword because there is slow buildup of evidence that Toyota's lock on reliability/quality is slipping right along with all this success (increased production).
 
cont....

#17426 of 24723 . by merc1

Aug 02, 2006 (3:33 am)

I remember a time when Toyota/Lexus fans claimed that continued bad press took a huge toll on Mercedes-Benz's sales and image. Now does the same apply to Toyota now? Sex scandals, millions of cars being recalled left and right with articles about it all over the net daily. Does this have any effect on Toyota like it was claimed to have on Mercedes-Benz? I mean the articles are endless on this and the president of Toyota had to publicly apologize recently for his company's out of character behavior. Or is all this irrelevant to buyers unless they've experienced some kind of problem themselves?
 
Anyway.........
 
No Toyota fan here will ever be able to convince me that Honda, BMW or Porsche are doing something wrong just because they don't make the same dollar amounts that Toyota does every year when they manage to appeal to both the "investors" and the "enthusiasts" alike.
 
This constant harping about Toyota's business and how it would be ruined by making a few cars outside of their normal dullard ways is either an excuse for them simply not being able to do so anymore or it is used by those who think they know what Toyota is all about, but don't because if they looked at Toyota's past they'd realize that sports cars and sport coupes have always been a part of Toyota's makeup as right along with the jillion boring sedans and SUVS they have today.
 
M

#17427 of 24723 Re: Actually, [blkhemi] by syswei

Aug 02, 2006 (4:10 am)

Replying to: blkhemi (Aug 01, 2006 7:20 pm)
What JDP says is [emphasis added]:
 
The J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) provides manufacturers and consumers with information on quality after 90 days of new-vehicle ownership. The study examines 217 vehicle attributes, and reports on a broad range of problems reported by owners.
 
• Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study (APEAL)—APEAL examines what consumers like about their new vehicles after 90 days of ownership. Often referred to as “things gone right,” APEAL is based on eight categories of vehicle performance and design: engine/transmission; ride, handling and braking; comfort/convenience; seats; cockpit/instrument panel; heating, ventilation and cooling; sound system; and styling/exterior.
 
It is true that they are asking about certain elements of the car in both surveys. While they haven't provided the actual questions for us, one can imagine that an IQS question might be of the form, "Have you experienced a complete breakdown or malfunction of the brakes in your car in the last 90 days?", whereas an APEAL question might be of the form, "Do you like the way your car brakes?". Think about this one: if a hypothetical car had "great brakes" that stopped the car in 20% less distance than any other car and just "felt" great, but had a breakdown rate greater than average (suppose 5% of owners experienced a brake malfunction whereas 0.5% is typical for the industry...I am inventing numbers here)...then the same car could score well in APEAL's braking category (because 95% of owners perceived that it had great brakes) but poorly in IQS's braking category (because a greater than average percentage of owners experienced brake malfunctions).

#17429 of 24723 Re: Actually, [syswei] by merc1

Aug 02, 2006 (4:22 am)

Replying to: syswei (Aug 02, 2006 4:10 am)
I haven't really been reading what all the fuss is about with the surveys this time around, but I do think JDP should have broken the IQS into two surveys because certain brands (like BMW) rank differently when you break down the two categories they used this year:
 
A little something I saw on MBWorld.org, someone posted the breakout for the study:
  
Auto news
More rankings
  
June 8, 2006
  
Email this Print this Related articles:
  
• J.D. POWER SURVEY: Hyundai leapfrogs Toyota in quality
Overall quality
The number of quality problems reported by buyers of new cars and trucks continues to fall. PP100 % change
1998 176
1999 167 9.00 5.11%
2000 154 13.00 7.78%
2001 147 7.00 4.55%
2002 133 14.00 9.52%
2003 133 0.00 0.00%
2004 119 14.00 10.53%
2005 118 1.00 0.84%
2006 109 9.44 8.00%
  
Pickup quality
Pickups remain one of the last strongholds for Detroit automakers. General Motors Corp. trucks ruled the roost on quality, followed closely by Toyota.
  
Pickup truck PP100
Chevrolet Silverado LD 98
Chevrolet Silverado HD/GMC Sierra HD (tie) 101
Toyota Tundra 103
GMC Sierra LD 104
Ford F-150 107
Dodge Ram LD 117
Pickup average 118
Ford F250/350 127
Chevrolet Avalanche 132
Nissan Titan 145
Dodge Ram HD 147
  
Design defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100
1 Porsche 35
2 Hyundai 41
3 GMC 43
4 Jaguar 44
5 Lexus 45
6 Nissan 45
7 Honda 46
8 Toyota 47
9 Chevrolet 49
10 Lincoln 50
11 Ford 50
12 Acura 51
13 Dodge 51
14 Mitsubishi 51
15 Infiniti 52
16 Industry Average 52
17 Saturn 54
18 Pontiac 55
19 Mercury 56
20 Jeep 56
21 Cadillac 57
22 Kia 58
23 Chrysler 59
24 Volvo 61
25 Audi 62
26 Scion 62
27 Saab 63
28 Mazda 64
29 Suzuki 66
30 Buick 68
31 Mercedes 68
32 Subaru 69
33 Isuzu 70
34 VW 73
35 Mini 77
36 Hummer 80
37 BMW 82
38 Land Rover 89
  
Manufacturing defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100
1 Lexus 42
2 Porsche 49
3 Toyota 52
4 BMW 52
5 Hyundai 53
6 Chrysler 53
7 Cadillac 54
8 Buick 55
9 Honda 57
10 Infiniti 57
11 Jaguar 59
12 Audi 60
13 Acura 63
14 Lincoln 63
15 Industry Average 64
16 Volvo 64
17 Mercury 65
18 Mercedes 65
19 Mini 65
20 Subaru 67
21 Chevrolet 69
22 Ford 69
23 GMC 70
24 Nissan 70
25 Saturn 70
26 Pontiac 70
27 Scion 71
28 Dodge 72
29 Kia 72
30 Mitsubishi 78
31 Mazda 79
32 Hummer 79
33 Jeep 87
34 VW 87
35 Saab 91
36 Suzuki 93
37 Land Rover 106
38 Isuzu 110
  
2006 Nameplate rankings
Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100
1 Porsche 91
2 Lexus 93
3 Hyundai 102
4 Toyota 106
5 Jaguar 109
6 Honda 110
7 Cadillac 117
8 Infiniti 117
9 GMC 119
10 Acura 120
11 Chrysler 120
12 Lincoln 121
13 Nissan 121
14 Chevrolet 124
15 Industry Average 124
16 Ford 127
17 Mercury 129
18 Saturn 129
19 Audi 130
20 Dodge 132
21 Pontiac 133
22 Volvo 133
23 Buick 134
24 Mitsubishi 135
25 Kia 136
26 Mercedes 139
27 Scion 140
28 BMW 142
29 Subaru 146
30 Mazda 150
31 Mini 150
32 Jeep 153
33 Saab 163
34 Suzuki 169
35 Hummer 171
36 VW 171
37 Isuzu 191
38 Land Rover 204
 
M

#17430 of 24723 Re: Actually, [merc1] by syswei

Aug 02, 2006 (4:30 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Aug 02, 2006 4:22 am)
Thanks, it's good to see more detailed rankings. And I agree that "design quality" should have been a separate study, not lumped into IQS.

#17431 of 24723 Re: Actually, [syswei] by merc1

Aug 02, 2006 (4:40 am)

Replying to: syswei (Aug 02, 2006 4:30 am)
I've talked to S-Class owners at MBWorld and some of the APPEAL questions are like: how does the car smell, or how do the seats feel after hours of driving and various styling questions. I can't link you to forum per Edmunds rules, but some of the 07' S-Class owners posted some of the questions from the APPEAL study. Interesting stuff.
 
M

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