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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: ljflx (Aug 01, 2006 7:22 pm) M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Aug 01, 2006 8:18 pm) So you are essentially asking Toyota to be who they are not ! I mean, how can you fault a car business running on auto pilot as the Toyota/Lexus machine is currently on ? They have their DNA in the market, just like you correctly noted for the LS' stellar sales success - sterling reputation for quality and reliability. And that reputation makes them successful... Why change that formula ? Every successful company must carve out a niche/calling card/DNA (call it whatever you like) that the market buys into. BMW has the performance/handling, ditto Porsche, Lexus is the other extreme, solid build quality, reliable machine, and luxurious to boot. Somewhere in the middle (to one side or the other) are the likes of Audi, MB, Jaguar, etc... Some are very successful at it, others struggle at it. Toyota sells cars that MOST people want, not ALL people. Fact is BMW and Porsche COMBINED do NOT have the profitability, market share and share size of the juggernaut called TOYOTA, despite making cars that benefit the so-called performance-biased crowd.... Sucks, but its the truth. Personally, if I were Toyota, I'd be careful to making too many wholesale changes to my DNA... Don't want to upset the applecart, you know... Maybe Merc1 needs a trip to Harvard Business School to better understand what makes Toyota a runaway success it is today... I am sure it will change his perception of Toyota/Lexus forever...
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Replying to: dewey (Jul 27, 2006 6:08 am) Seriously though - Cadillac's whole new image turns me off, as do the cars. They don't make real Cadillacs or Lincolns anymore.
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Replying to: syswei (Aug 01, 2006 4:23 pm) If a vehicle is rated at the BOTTOM of the IQS then one would reason that the individual would not be happy with their automobile and would rate the APEAL accordingly low. So if the IQS is very low, and the APEAL is high, I assume something is askew. Also, it’s my understanding (have not studied the site) that the surveys are based on individuals’ responses and therefore are filtered through that individual’s expectations. E.g. a Hyundai owner may receive the survey and state that every thing is excellent and they are extremely happy…after all “it’s pretty good for a Hyundai”. A MB owner (for example) may inspect their automobile with a more critical eye…and as a result tally up more “unhappy” items. Not to suggest Lexus owners (since they are at the top of the IQS) are easier to please than MB/Audi/BMW etc owners; just pointing out that surveys based on “what do you think” do not always have a clear conclusion they seem to imply. The “highest” HELM I’ve owned was an Audi A6 and had numerous items for “adjustment” with each dealer visit (I had them adjust the glove compartment latch 3 separate times…nothing was wrong with it…I just wanted it a little looser…then tighter); everything was perfect in that automobile. A subsequent Honda I purchased had a stain in the headliner that remained there for two years; as well as a number of other problems ranging from small to serious (3 days out of service) The skewed report: The Audi was far more reliable than the Honda, but if I were to count up the items that “needed” (using that term loosely) attention, it would appear that the A6 had more “problems”…but if I were to rate the APEAL it would be ranked very high.
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Replying to: blkhemi (Aug 01, 2006 3:01 pm) Typical sentiment from a Germancarfan dissing Lexus, and the LS. Read that article syswei linked yet ? Maybe you'd not like this 2004 survey in this link as well, from Germany's Autobild magazine. Notice where MB, Audi and BMW are ranked in their own home country versus Toyota ? Or how about this one link which puts your fav Audi in a lot of positive spins, but you gather reading b/w the lines that Toyota will only gain strength in Europe especially when (not if) quality/reliability starts to dominate over engineering and beauty of the German cars...
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Replying to: tagman (Aug 01, 2006 6:15 pm) Lighten up, will ya ? Did you not see the smilie in my response to Dewey ? If you don't expect such a survey to generate some heat, I guess you must be a newbie to HELM, eh ?   
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Replying to: nvbanker (Aug 01, 2006 11:19 pm) Lincoln did a tiny bit of advertising for the Zephyr, but that was it. Lincoln's sole reason for existing at this point seems to be so that executives of brands like Saab and Jag can say "hey, could be worse. We could be working at Lincoln". |
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Replying to: oac (Aug 01, 2006 11:08 pm) Nope not at all. I don't see why everyone who champions Toyota/Lexus thinks that making an exciting car will ruin the business end. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact if Toyota/Lexus started to cater to even a few enthusiasts their business would grow even further. Nobody is asking them to change who they are, only to remember that not everyone wants a sensible shoes transportation appliance in every category. If Toyota made a 350Z killer, a 35K Supra that looked great along with all the other positive attributes the previous Supra had I'd have one in a min! How is that hurting them? It isn't. Every successful company must carve out a niche/calling card/DNA (call it whatever you like) that the market buys into. BMW has the performance/handling, ditto Porsche, Lexus is the other extreme, solid build quality, reliable machine, and luxurious to boot. Somewhere in the middle (to one side or the other) are the likes of Audi, MB, Jaguar, etc... Some are very successful at it, others struggle at it. Sorry Oac but this doesn't hold any weight because Lexus doesn't hold anything "extreme" in the areas of solid build quality or luxury over Audi, BMW or Jaguar or MB, they're just more reliable. Those "others" as you say thrive in areas in which Lexus doesn't so it isn't nearly black and white as you imply with this statement. Toyota sells cars that MOST people want, not ALL people. Fact is BMW and Porsche COMBINED do NOT have the profitability, market share and share size of the juggernaut called TOYOTA, despite making cars that benefit the so-called performance-biased crowd.... Very lopsided and downright silly to compare BMW and Porsche's balance sheet/market share with Toyota's. Uh...of course Toyota is going to make more money and have more market share than a luxury car maker like BMW and of course they'll do better than a small high-end sports car maker like Porsche...both brands sell cars for prices Toyota (and Lexus) can only dream about. However since you brought up Porsche, you should know that Porsche makes more money PER CAR SOLD than any other car company in the world. Period. BMW is also in the top 3 of this group. I'm not talking about the dollar amount, but the percentage of profit/return on each unit. Porsche is #1 in the world at this. If you're going to compare BMW and Porsche's financials overall to anyone it has to be Lexus, but does Toyota break out the financials for Lexus seperate from Toyota? Probably not. While we're talking about market share, why not look at what percentage of the sports car market Porsche has or the luxury car market that BMW has. Yes I know you'll say that Lexus is #1 here, but BMW isn't a one-market-only-wonder like Lexus. BMW's board likely couldn't be more pleased with their success. Ditto for Porsche and Honda too for that matter. Personally, if I were Toyota, I'd be careful to making too many wholesale changes to my DNA... You just don't get it Oac, no one is asking them to make wholesale changes to their DNA, only to remember that not everyone wants a sedan or suv. In the past Toyota has made cars like the Supra and Celica and MR2 and up until recently those cars were successful and it didn't hurt their business one bit. Surely the super smart Toyota could change some things around with those models only in order to grow their business that much more? If they can't then they're the biggest one-trick pony in the business. Don't want to upset the applecart, you know... Maybe Merc1 needs a trip to Harvard Business School to better understand what makes Toyota a runaway success it is today... I am sure it will change his perception of Toyota/Lexus forever... Again, the point has been missed here. What on earth does this have to do with the cars sitting on the showroom floor? No one buys a Toyota or Lexus because of their stellar business practices, though I know certain Lexus/Toyota fanatics here would like to think people do but they don't. Others have proven that you can run a succesfull, heck a highly successful business while catering to the enthusiast and I'm not even saying that is what Toyota/Lexus should do, they only need one or two models to help shed some of the stick-in-the-mud image. If you get the sensible shoes buyers and the enthusiasts in the same showroom buying different products you'd have the market truly cornered! Even LJ can see that. There isn't a place on earth that I could visit outside of a Lexus or Toyota showroom with some or at least one stunning vehicle that would change my perception of Lexus or Toyota. Again, having solid business end (Porsche or BMW) doesn't mean you have to have dull cars, Lexus' business would grow that much more if they had something, hell anything that lit the fire of an enthusiast. Keep the yawners like the LS/RX/ES true to form, but their is no reason why the GS, IS and that upcoming sports car have to be so dull and yawn inducing. This implication that a solid business can't be had while appealing to enthusiast, in Toyota/Lexus' case just a little not a wholesale change, is just total nonsense. Toyota has managed to do just that before even conservative types like Honda manage to do it. If Honda can do such with a cars like the S2000 or Civic Si that blows this (Toyota) theory about good business has to made or can only thrive on boring cars right out of the water! All this about Toyota being a runaway success is a double-edged sword because there is slow buildup of evidence that Toyota's lock on reliability/quality is slipping right along with all this success (increased production). cont.... |
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I remember a time when Toyota/Lexus fans claimed that continued bad press took a huge toll on Mercedes-Benz's sales and image. Now does the same apply to Toyota now? Sex scandals, millions of cars being recalled left and right with articles about it all over the net daily. Does this have any effect on Toyota like it was claimed to have on Mercedes-Benz? I mean the articles are endless on this and the president of Toyota had to publicly apologize recently for his company's out of character behavior. Or is all this irrelevant to buyers unless they've experienced some kind of problem themselves? Anyway......... No Toyota fan here will ever be able to convince me that Honda, BMW or Porsche are doing something wrong just because they don't make the same dollar amounts that Toyota does every year when they manage to appeal to both the "investors" and the "enthusiasts" alike. This constant harping about Toyota's business and how it would be ruined by making a few cars outside of their normal dullard ways is either an excuse for them simply not being able to do so anymore or it is used by those who think they know what Toyota is all about, but don't because if they looked at Toyota's past they'd realize that sports cars and sport coupes have always been a part of Toyota's makeup as right along with the jillion boring sedans and SUVS they have today. M |
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Replying to: blkhemi (Aug 01, 2006 6:20 pm) The J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) provides manufacturers and consumers with information on quality after 90 days of new-vehicle ownership. The study examines 217 vehicle attributes, and reports on a broad range of problems reported by owners. • Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study (APEAL)—APEAL examines what consumers like about their new vehicles after 90 days of ownership. Often referred to as “things gone right,” APEAL is based on eight categories of vehicle performance and design: engine/transmission; ride, handling and braking; comfort/convenience; seats; cockpit/instrument panel; heating, ventilation and cooling; sound system; and styling/exterior. It is true that they are asking about certain elements of the car in both surveys. While they haven't provided the actual questions for us, one can imagine that an IQS question might be of the form, "Have you experienced a complete breakdown or malfunction of the brakes in your car in the last 90 days?", whereas an APEAL question might be of the form, "Do you like the way your car brakes?". Think about this one: if a hypothetical car had "great brakes" that stopped the car in 20% less distance than any other car and just "felt" great, but had a breakdown rate greater than average (suppose 5% of owners experienced a brake malfunction whereas 0.5% is typical for the industry...I am inventing numbers here)...then the same car could score well in APEAL's braking category (because 95% of owners perceived that it had great brakes) but poorly in IQS's braking category (because a greater than average percentage of owners experienced brake malfunctions).
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