Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#17399 of 24723 Re: Everybody [blkhemi]
Aug 01, 2006 (2:39 pm)
I don't think anyone believes that Lexus is problem-free, or that every MB breaks down frequently. And that isn't what JDP or CR actually show. They only show that Lexus, Porsche, and other brands are relatively reliable as compared to MB. For instance the 2005 JDP VDS (here) shows Lexus had 139 problems per 100 vehicles (not zero) and MB had 283 (not 1000). CR is consistent with numbers like that (see here)
You refer to JDP and CR as "biased". Are they biased because they publish results you simply can't face? Or do you have some actual evidence that there is something less than objective going on at both places? And how do you explain the fact that JDP and CR are not alone? That studies in the UK (here) and your beloved Germany also point to the relatively better reliability of Lexus vs MB? Can you point to any well-conducted study, anywhere in the world, that shows that MB is as reliable as, or even "almost" as reliable as, Lexus?
All that being said, I know that reliability isn't everything, and that different people might care about it in differing degrees. That's one reason I don't usually argue with BMW fans. They tend to like BMW for things that most people recognize Lexus lacks.
#17400 of 24723 Re: Everybody [syswei]
Aug 01, 2006 (4:01 pm)
You don't have to be an automotive genious to know that CR is consistently misleading in what they think the marketplace of cars is. And dare I even comment on JDP:
This being the very company that rolled out a IQS report that showed some cars at the very bottom(LR) yet in the APEAL they miraculously appear to be at the top(10)? And please don't run me that "reliability isn't everything" gig as anyone who plops 80 large on a RR Supercharged only to have the engine blow before 10k miles is not and will not be enjoying the ride. Oh. moreover, this is also the same rag that gave the Pontiac Grand Prix the best Large Car in Initial Quality(and best factory) yet in APEAL it's a dead ringer? So I like it intially, but give me a thousand miles to think about it, I'm sure to hate it!
I've never ever read(and I read a lot) anything out of Germany that'll suggest a LS to be more reliable than a MB. That's not Germany's MO. Most rags there don't mention car and LS in the same sentence.
But I digress once more. The LS is more reliable on most basis(not always) than most of it's competition. I never said it wasn't. What was mentioned was the LS is not so perfect that it won't break down. It's not Zeus, the Greek God. Yes the car is mechanically sound, but infinetely reliable??? Hardly, no matter how the 114k miles got there........-
#17401 of 24723 Re: Report on Japan's global production [ljflx]
Aug 01, 2006 (4:13 pm)
With that being said, and with all of the cars being made there, why is that they don't sell well there? And this is not a Toyota/Lexus thing. The USA accounts for 54.9% of Honda Motor LTD. complete business, yet they too have a slew of factories in Europe.
Take the Euro/Asia market Accord(our TSX). The Opel's(GM) and Ford's(Mondeo) outsells it 3 and 4-1, respectively. The IS250/350: only 410 on average per month compared to 2800 330i's, 2600 A4's, and 1900 C-Classes. The major calling card these otherwise great cars are missing is a diesel engine. Without, you drown in Europe. And this is sure to be the reason the now techno-loaded(something Lexus vowed never to do) LS is sure to do horridly so there. Even in Europe, speed and R-the word isn't everything...
#17402 of 24723 Re: I Read..... [brightness04]
Aug 01, 2006 (4:31 pm)
Good point Brightness. I could not agree more.
#17404 of 24723 Re: Everybody [blkhemi]
Aug 01, 2006 (5:23 pm)
IQS vs APEAL. You really ought to look at the JDP website before jumping to conclusions. Those two surveys measure different things and hence come up with different results. If you ran one poll asking "who are you going to vote for in the next Presidential election" and another asking "who is the most beautiful actress you can think of" you'd get different results, no? Would that result mean the results are invalid?
German surveys. Well, here's one: article
#17405 of 24723 Right, Syswei
Aug 01, 2006 (5:57 pm)
I don't know how Hemi gets confused by APEAL vs IQS. One measures Appeal/Ease of Use. One measures quality.
#17406 of 24723 Re: Everybody [syswei]
Aug 01, 2006 (6:20 pm)
Those two surveys measure different things and hence come up with different results. If you ran one poll asking "who are you going to vote for in the next Presidential election" and another asking "who is the most beautiful actress you can think of" you'd get different results, no?
Sure they measure different things, duh . . . but your analogy is flawed. Both surveys, while entirely different have CARS as the net result . . . quite a bit different than a Presidential race and the most beautiful actress, which are comprised of different subject matter, and have different net results.
In any event, ALL of this is blown WAY TOO FAR out of proportion, because the original point was the one that Dewey made, and he was unfairly hung out to dry for it, IMO. Now anybody that dares to defend him is guilty by association of a crime that did not exist in the first place . . . as he had MORE than adequate disclaimers in his posts.
It's a case of the ridiculous chasing after the absurd !!
And sure enough, here comes the Doc to chime in a dig when the opportunity presents itself.
For goodness sake, knock it off already.
#17407 of 24723 Re: Everybody [tagman]
Aug 01, 2006 (6:35 pm)
but your analogy is flawed. Both surveys, while entirely different have CARS as the net result . . . quite a bit different than a Presidential race and the most beautiful actress, which are comprised of different subject matter, and have different net results.
I don't think it's flawed at all. The Presidential race and beautiful actress questions both ask for judgements about "best" people, but best at different things. The JDP surveys both ask for judgements about "best" cars, but best at different things.
#17408 of 24723 Re: Everybody [syswei]
Aug 01, 2006 (7:15 pm)
OK. Yes, that's an acceptable explanation and I see your point. Now please don't miss my main point, here. You know that essentially a lot has been made out of nothing. Just look at the posts.