Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#17354 of 24726 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [tagman]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:35 pm)
Well lets go back to the beginning of the Maybach issue. The car was originally intended and labeled "The Maybach by Mercedes-Benz". The original concept car shown at the 1997 Tokyo auto show as a grand Mercedes really close to the spirit of old "600" MBs from years ago. Then.....
BMW and VW got a hold of Rolls and Bentley repsectively so Mercedes decided to switch up the program (i.e. make a mistake) and make "Maybach" a seperate brand. Since the car was originally designed as a Mercedes there was little time to change it into something truly unique so they were pretty much stuck with what we see today.
Now I would guess you're looking at the 175-190K price range because of what Bentley has been able to do at that price right? The difference is that Bentley doesn't have to compete with anyone else from the VW empire at that price. As it stands with Maybach the 57S which is the sportiest Maybach is really rendered pointless on paper by the faster, betting handling, more techincally advanced S65 AMG. Part of the reason the current Maybachs don't sell is because the S-Class really puts them in the shade functionally. Sure you can get more space in a Maybach, but the S-Class holds all the cars in everything else, even in name recognition because lets face it Maybach doesn't really ring the bell nearly as loud as "Rolls-Royce" does or even "S-Class". You say either one of those and people know exactly what you're talking about.
A cheaper Maybach in the 175-190K range would do one of two things; would make a car like the S65 pointless or the cheaper Maybach would render itself pointless if it isn't crushingly superior. Either way one of them loses, IMO. Maybach should never go below the price of an Arnage, around 235K or so below that and you risk making the pricest S-Class models a hard-sell.
Now you did mention what I was thinking, maybe a S-Class shouldn't costs 190K in the first place, that is something to think about. Either way they can't overlap, even if it means getting rid of the S65 AMG or keeping Maybach more exclusive in the 225K+ realm.
#17355 of 24726 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [oac]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:38 pm)
Fact is purists and HELM are not synonymous.... no matter the sugar coat and negative spin you try to put on it. Here we discuss High End Luxury Marque, or call them FULL-SIZE LUXURY SEDANS... That's the lil fact that you fail to grasp. There are no cars in this forum that a purist cares about.... so spare me the sermon about purists and who knows/does not know squat about nothing... Yes I'll repeat myself... you are no purist, simply an idealist, IMO !
You read so much into a discussion (no one called you anything!) for the sake of not having to deal with the points that were raised. Also, where did anyone say that HELM automatically means purist?
You're right there is no sense in discussing this with you because you can't seem to get past this group of sedans when we're discussing entire brands and/or the companies that own them. All this babble about Mercedes and Dr. Z only applies to HEL sedans? One minute we're talking about Dr Z and and what he will do with Mercedes-Benz and how the purist will react and/of they will be please, and in the next purist don't care about HEL sedans. Makes a whole lot of sense except for the fact that "Dr Z" is in charge of much more than the S-Class!! He runs MB and that is where the "purist" angle came in. You got it confused with how you think a "purist" would want a S-Class or some other HELM sedan to drive. You're the one that got it confused.
Another thing, I didn't say I was a "purist" your fellow Lexus fan did. You don't seem to know what a purist is when it comes to what we're talking about here.
Let Lexus start doing cars like the original IS300, making a "Lexus" out of a mere "Toyota" and you'll grasp the meaning of the word and take the "purist" attitude really quick.
#17356 of 24726 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [merc1]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:48 pm)
Now I would guess you're looking at the 175-190K price range because of what Bentley has been able to do at that price right?
As you explain the problem, however, Maybach's competition becomes Mercedes itself, and frankly, that's unacceptable to me.
Maybach needs to be considered a competitor to Bentley, RR, etc., and therefore manufactured, priced, and marketed as such.
Otherwise, it just becomes a continuing dilemma.
#17357 of 24726 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [tagman]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:58 pm)
I agree, which I why I think they need to stay comfortably above any Mercedes models. About 225K is as low as I'd go with the Maybach brand and that car needs to be something the S-Class isn't. What that is I dunno, but a unique look would help.
The part that gets me about the whole Maybach thing was that some at MB felt that "Mercedes-Benz" wasn't prestigious enough to compete with "Bentley" and "Rolls-Royce" anymore, but yet they elected to slap the "Mercedes-Benz" badge on the A-Class and B-Class vehicles, which do nothing positive image-wise for Mercedes. Someone at MB forgot that Mercedes-Benz back in the day had no trouble competing and in many cases surpassing the best Rolls and Bentley had to offer.
#17358 of 24726 Tag, Merc, thoughts on the Maybach 51?
Jul 30, 2006 (10:13 pm)
"According to Auto Motor und Sport, the new Maybach 51 (with the model number indicating its 5.1 meter length) will not grace the marketplace before the 2009-2010 timeframe.
The 51 is said to be targeted at a price point north of $250,000 at current exchange rates, positioning it against the Bentley Continental Flying Spur and the upcoming small Rolls-Royce.
The magazine reports that the mini Maybach will be based on the Mercedes-Benz S-class platform, giving it access to a choice of V8 and V12 powerplants. Both sedan and coupe versions are planned."
#17359 of 24726 Re: Tag, Merc, thoughts on the Maybach 51? [lexusguy]
Jul 30, 2006 (10:17 pm)
I dunno. I'm all for using the W221 platform, but it can't look like a warmed over S550. Secondly it needs to have something that the Mercedes doesn't have or can't offer beyond the looks. A totally different "bespoke" interior is a must also, no S-Class switchgear. Of course it needs to start with the S600's V12 and go from there, but with more hp in each application if they decided to use the S65's V12 also. The 250K price is right though, it will seperate the two cars nicely.
Jul 31, 2006 (3:53 am)
Sorry about my indiscretion. The E350 was there.
Regarding the IS300, my point was to show that it was not Roadkill, as Team Europe likes to put over on these airwaves. The fact that it was a couple of points behind the vaunted 328i shows it had great driving dynamics, and deserves respect.
I know you want to run out and buy a GS460 this fall, but let's start cutting the S-Class sales in half with a new LS before we get you your GS460 next Summer, K?
YES, I SAID IT! The S-Class will not sell 3k a month in 2007. It'll fall to 1500-2000 a month when the new LS changes the market direction this October.
There WILL be plenty of buyers who would rather pay $900-1000 a month for an LS, than $13-1400 a month for an S550.
Jul 31, 2006 (4:00 am)
I guess this was missed in my previous posts, so it bears repeating:
Lexus could become Ford or VW for a year, and still be Quality Standard.
With Lexus sales up 10% a year, for the last deacde or so, I'd say these are exceptions, not the rule.
I thank NV and SV for their testimonials, but at the same point, neither will say they regret buying the LS, and they haven't beat a path to the trade-in lot either.
Lexus is not perfect. Just closer than the competition, that's all. The Pursuit continues!
#17362 of 24726 Re: Everybody [drfill]
Jul 31, 2006 (6:08 am)
Lexus is not perfect. Just closer than the competition, that's all. The Pursuit continues!
Until Lexus turns in JD scores of 0 PP 100, there will be the unlucky few with problems. That said, I've never heard of an SC430 with a broken top, and Ive never seen an LS being taken away on a flat bed. SL, S, care to comment? Didnt think so.
#17363 of 24726 Re: I Read..... [ljflx]
Jul 31, 2006 (6:46 am)
how'd you like to set up a concession stand and make a business for the group of people (I'm guessing the count will be zero, maybe one person if I really stretch my imagination) that will exit the 2008 LS600HL line and enter the 2009 Prius line. Just don't expect any bank to loan you the money to start a business where no one will line up.
It is not my habit to respond to such an ancient and dated post as above. But it just turns out that your above assertions are not witty at all but are actually quite serious. Your business proposal above sounds quite opportunistic based on the stats below:
1)Only 19 % of CEOs in USA own a luxury car
2)The Average Price in US$ of the Primary Vehicle driven by a CEO in the USA is $25,000.
SOURCE: Cars.com and CareerBuilder.com
Based on the stats above I would not be surprised at all if a CEO during 2008 trades in his hybrid Lexus for a significantly improved Prius.
I hope you dont mind if I steal your business idea (I have no intention of sharing my profits with you)? I will be starting my concession stand during 2008