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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Now you can see the more realistic truth about Lexus that blkhemi and I told you this morning. As you read the entire day's posts you can easily see what we were saying all along. Read them and you will understand honest testimony from honest folks based upon honest real-life experiences. We're not trying to insult you or Lexus, Doc . . . but these posts are honest and sincere . . . and balanced . . . what more could or should you want than that? TagMan |
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Replying to: oac (Jul 28, 2006 9:06 am) Apparently it is very hard to grasp because you just don't get it. All this worshiping of "Dr Z" by a bunch of Lexus fanatics is just hilarious. One person makes a "business minded" post about the man and all of a sudden he is the best thing since air conditioning. If you think that being a purist is just about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny. The word "purist" as LJ is using it applies to folks who like MB for what it is and more importantly they actually know the brand and what it stands for, and they'd like to see it stay that way instead of blending (and losing) MB's DNA with a Chrysler. This goes way beyond your simplistic resentment of other brands that are able to actually make driver's cars. I'm also noticing that we're talking about the head of a company, but this particular rant focuses on HELMs. Uh..we're talking about the whole company here not just the S-Class/LS sideshow so uh..the other cars these "luxury" brands make are like totally relevant here. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Jul 30, 2006 8:55 pm) I'm not officially disagreeing with you, here, but let me suggest that it is much easier said than done, Merc. You don't just snap your fingers, get out your top designers and come up with something on that order or magnitude, IMO, and then assume the problem is solved. Yes, a stunning redesign is necessary, I agree, but PART of the fix. The rest, I'm afraid is some aggressive pricing. To go down market with Maybach say anywhere under 225K (the price of a Bentley Arnage) wouldn't make any sense because a S65 or CL65 already push 190K. Mercedes and Maybach can't overlap otherwise Maybach is rendered even more pointless. Not totally pointless. Your reasoning is well taken, but consider for a moment that the animals are different enough that a base price of about $175,000 to $190,000 for a stunning new Maybach might be just the answer. A further enhanced model could be based at $250,000. I don't see major cannibalization of the S65 or CL65. Again, different animals . . . and even if there was a little overlap as you thoughtfully indicated, you might be inclined to agree here that it would be well worth sacrificing a small slice of the Mercedes pinnacle to jump start the Maybach. Definately something to consider. TagMan
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Replying to: drfill (Jul 30, 2006 2:40 pm) Wrong, the GS430 faced a E350, not a E500 at Car and Driver. And the last IS did very well, behind only the G35 and 328i in "11 Sports Sedans" back in 2002. Oh so now 3rd place is respectable, only when it comes to Lexus I guess. And with 303HP, the GS350 will go forward and multiply! Yet at the same time it renders the GS430 the most pointless car in a Lexus showroom. Where is the GS460? M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Jul 30, 2006 9:05 pm) ... If you think that being a purist is all about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny. The problem with you Merc1 is that your posts read like someone spoiling for a fight... that's why all the name-calling.... I am sorry, I won't oblige you. Read Designman, Tagman or BlkHemi's posts and compare to yours... difference is like night and day. Fact is purists and HELM are not synonymous.... no matter the sugar coat and negative spin you try to put on it. Here we discuss High End Luxury Marque, or call them FULL-SIZE LUXURY SEDANS... That's the lil fact that you fail to grasp. There are no cars in this forum that a purist cares about.... so spare me the sermon about purists and who knows/does not know squat about nothing... Yes I'll repeat myself... you are no purist, simply an idealist, IMO ! I am off this bridge-to-nowhere point with you.. Go ahead and have fun with it.
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Replying to: tagman (Jul 30, 2006 9:18 pm) BMW and VW got a hold of Rolls and Bentley repsectively so Mercedes decided to switch up the program (i.e. make a mistake) and make "Maybach" a seperate brand. Since the car was originally designed as a Mercedes there was little time to change it into something truly unique so they were pretty much stuck with what we see today. Now I would guess you're looking at the 175-190K price range because of what Bentley has been able to do at that price right? The difference is that Bentley doesn't have to compete with anyone else from the VW empire at that price. As it stands with Maybach the 57S which is the sportiest Maybach is really rendered pointless on paper by the faster, betting handling, more techincally advanced S65 AMG. Part of the reason the current Maybachs don't sell is because the S-Class really puts them in the shade functionally. Sure you can get more space in a Maybach, but the S-Class holds all the cars in everything else, even in name recognition because lets face it Maybach doesn't really ring the bell nearly as loud as "Rolls-Royce" does or even "S-Class". You say either one of those and people know exactly what you're talking about. A cheaper Maybach in the 175-190K range would do one of two things; would make a car like the S65 pointless or the cheaper Maybach would render itself pointless if it isn't crushingly superior. Either way one of them loses, IMO. Maybach should never go below the price of an Arnage, around 235K or so below that and you risk making the pricest S-Class models a hard-sell. Now you did mention what I was thinking, maybe a S-Class shouldn't costs 190K in the first place, that is something to think about. Either way they can't overlap, even if it means getting rid of the S65 AMG or keeping Maybach more exclusive in the 225K+ realm. M
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Replying to: oac (Jul 30, 2006 9:34 pm) You read so much into a discussion (no one called you anything!) for the sake of not having to deal with the points that were raised. Also, where did anyone say that HELM automatically means purist? You're right there is no sense in discussing this with you because you can't seem to get past this group of sedans when we're discussing entire brands and/or the companies that own them. All this babble about Mercedes and Dr. Z only applies to HEL sedans? One minute we're talking about Dr Z and and what he will do with Mercedes-Benz and how the purist will react and/of they will be please, and in the next purist don't care about HEL sedans. Makes a whole lot of sense except for the fact that "Dr Z" is in charge of much more than the S-Class!! He runs MB and that is where the "purist" angle came in. You got it confused with how you think a "purist" would want a S-Class or some other HELM sedan to drive. You're the one that got it confused. Another thing, I didn't say I was a "purist" your fellow Lexus fan did. You don't seem to know what a purist is when it comes to what we're talking about here. Let Lexus start doing cars like the original IS300, making a "Lexus" out of a mere "Toyota" and you'll grasp the meaning of the word and take the "purist" attitude really quick. M |
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Replying to: merc1 (Jul 30, 2006 9:35 pm) Absolutely correct. As you explain the problem, however, Maybach's competition becomes Mercedes itself, and frankly, that's unacceptable to me. Maybach needs to be considered a competitor to Bentley, RR, etc., and therefore manufactured, priced, and marketed as such. Otherwise, it just becomes a continuing dilemma. TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Jul 30, 2006 9:48 pm) The part that gets me about the whole Maybach thing was that some at MB felt that "Mercedes-Benz" wasn't prestigious enough to compete with "Bentley" and "Rolls-Royce" anymore, but yet they elected to slap the "Mercedes-Benz" badge on the A-Class and B-Class vehicles, which do nothing positive image-wise for Mercedes. Someone at MB forgot that Mercedes-Benz back in the day had no trouble competing and in many cases surpassing the best Rolls and Bentley had to offer. M |
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