Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#17344 of 24723 Re: Tagman, Hemi [nvbanker]
Jul 30, 2006 (8:14 pm)
You basically summarized my Lexus experience. My 2002 LS430 had the same steering issue and had the rain sensor replaced three times. My 1998 LS400 suffered from electronic gremlins that caused it to stall and the cluster to flicker.
The 2005 was mechanically sound but suffered from the worst paint I've seen in a long time. I've never seen paint chip and scratch that easily. It was really irritating to see new scratches on it every time I polished it. I barely drove the car 7,000 miles and there were chips and scratches in the clearcoat all over the car. (Especially the bumper area)
That was one of the biggest reasons for getting a S Class with Nanotech paint. It's amazing. I accidently clipped a dump truck with the side mirror of my S430. I saw the mirror fly off the car and was resigned to spending $600 or more to get a new one.
Much to my surprise the mirror was laying on the side of the street undamaged. There was a slight scratch in the paint and it snapped right back on the car..I couldn't believe my good luck. Good engineering on Mercedes' part.
I don't foster any illusions about my S430. I fully expect this car to break. As long as it's under warranty I don't mind. If it breaks, I have an excuse to drive my LS400. Or I can steal the Corolla from my son.
A word about the Corolla. I am very surprised with the build quality of this car. It rattles like crazy and the CD player doesn't work when the weather gets hot. The tires spin even in the slightest of rain..It's quite dangerous, especially when on a hill..
Seems like Toyota's build quality is slipping a little bit. I'm pretty sure the Lexus models should be fine. My only worry is the increasing technical complexity of these cars are going to cause problems. Ask Airbus how much trouble you can have with electronics!
Nv, I echo your feelings on a Jag..I'm still eyeing for for next year. The only problem is I have no room to store it in my house..Time to buy a garage!
#17345 of 24723 Re: The virtue of Germanic cars! [brightness04]
Jul 30, 2006 (8:50 pm)
After all, these stylicstic elements are nothing more than what naturally flows from the function of a car, right?
No contradiction whatsoever. These functional stylistic cues are in disrepute today. I guess you've heard the complaints about German cars being too austere and spartan?
There are many things that can be said about Banlgle design, but austere and spartan are certainly not a part of the Bangle vocabulary.. These lines and curves may be as temporary in BMWs as fin tails were temporarily used in 1950s Mercedes Benzes?
And maybe the BMWs of the future will have a more Germanic look than they do today just as 1960s Benzes looked more Germanic than the 1950s fintail models ?
#17346 of 24723 Re: Hi Everyone! [ljflx]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:46 pm)
Mercedes has fallen quite a bit in market share but not in actual sales number. The market has shot way up in the last 10 years but MB has'nt gotten much of the growth.
What? That isn't true. Mercedes sold 76,752 units in 1995 compared to 224,421 in 2005, they've nearly tripled their business in this country in the least 10 years so where you're getting this from I have no idea.
The luxury market has grown in the last 10 years like you stated, but has it tripled (or more than tripled to keep in line with that about MB not getting much of the growth) like MB's sales nearly have?
#17347 of 24723 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [ljflx]
Jul 30, 2006 (9:55 pm)
MB was sinking when he inherited it and had turned red and he's a cost cutter synergy type of guy. Who do you please - the purists like Merc1 or the investors? The answer is obvious and what I'd do if I were him is re-invent the Maybach at a much lower level and let it be the MB purist brand. Maybach is bleeding and going nowhere in its current state.
Interesting, but you can do both. Porsche does it. Just because the investors are pleased and a company makes money doesn't mean the cars have to be lifeless, dull and boring. This blending you're suggesting will make a Mercedes out of a Chrysler and a Chrysler out of a Mercedes, and thus Mercedes-Benz will be finished and there goes 1/2 of your business. The half that is currently profitable I might add. If this guy is as smart as everyone seems to think he is he won't dare trade in what makes a Mercedes a Mercedes to please some clueless investors. DCX ain't GM, and Mercedes ain't Saab.
All Maybach needs is a stunning new design that says look at me in the Rolls Phantom does. To go down market with Maybach say anywhere under 225K (the price of a Bentley Arnage) wouldn't make any sense because a S65 or CL65 already push 190K. Mercedes and Maybach can't overlap otherwise Maybach is rendered even more pointless.
#17348 of 24723 Some Truth Serum for the Doc
Jul 30, 2006 (9:57 pm)
Now you can see the more realistic truth about Lexus that blkhemi and I told you this morning. As you read the entire day's posts you can easily see what we were saying all along. Read them and you will understand honest testimony from honest folks based upon honest real-life experiences.
We're not trying to insult you or Lexus, Doc . . . but these posts are honest and sincere . . . and balanced . . . what more could or should you want than that?
#17349 of 24723 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [oac]
Jul 30, 2006 (10:05 pm)
I don't care how anyone is tuned into the "driving" aspect of a car. No one lives on left-hand turn race tracks, neither do people live on autobahns.... or motor speedways. The real purists don't drive mainstream cars like many of us here do... They drive STi, WRX, M/RS/S, Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc...all with a stick... Those AT AMGs don't count either (except for my fav MB, the E55). Now we are talking purists cos these cars are simply meant to be driven, no pretensions of luxury or fluff about these cars...They have only one purpose in their genre.. However, to use the word "purist" on a HELM board just don't work together... HELM refers to LUXURY MARQUES not sport-tuned sedans which you'd find in the LPS forum... To hear the so-called *purists* on HELM, you'd think that they live on speedways/race tracks... See, reality is that your car drives you from point A to point B, with some comfort, some speed, some handling, some pleasure, thrown in. No single car on this planet gives you EVERYTHING you'd need/want in a car.... Its all about business which provides such driving xteristics. Dr Z is a business man and he understands that lil' reality which I am afraid some Germancarfans struggle with... Its not that hard to grasp, is it ?
Apparently it is very hard to grasp because you just don't get it. All this worshiping of "Dr Z" by a bunch of Lexus fanatics is just hilarious. One person makes a "business minded" post about the man and all of a sudden he is the best thing since air conditioning. If you think that being a purist is just about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny.
The word "purist" as LJ is using it applies to folks who like MB for what it is and more importantly they actually know the brand and what it stands for, and they'd like to see it stay that way instead of blending (and losing) MB's DNA with a Chrysler. This goes way beyond your simplistic resentment of other brands that are able to actually make driver's cars.
I'm also noticing that we're talking about the head of a company, but this particular rant focuses on HELMs. Uh..we're talking about the whole company here not just the S-Class/LS sideshow so uh..the other cars these "luxury" brands make are like totally relevant here.
#17351 of 24723 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [merc1]
Jul 30, 2006 (10:18 pm)
All Maybach needs is a stunning new design that says look at me in the Rolls Phantom does
I'm not officially disagreeing with you, here, but let me suggest that it is much easier said than done, Merc. You don't just snap your fingers, get out your top designers and come up with something on that order or magnitude, IMO, and then assume the problem is solved. Yes, a stunning redesign is necessary, I agree, but PART of the fix. The rest, I'm afraid is some aggressive pricing.
To go down market with Maybach say anywhere under 225K (the price of a Bentley Arnage) wouldn't make any sense because a S65 or CL65 already push 190K. Mercedes and Maybach can't overlap otherwise Maybach is rendered even more pointless.
Not totally pointless. Your reasoning is well taken, but consider for a moment that the animals are different enough that a base price of about $175,000 to $190,000 for a stunning new Maybach might be just the answer. A further enhanced model could be based at $250,000. I don't see major cannibalization of the S65 or CL65. Again, different animals . . . and even if there was a little overlap as you thoughtfully indicated, you might be inclined to agree here that it would be well worth sacrificing a small slice of the Mercedes pinnacle to jump start the Maybach. Definately something to consider.
#17352 of 24723 Re: Hemi [drfill]
Jul 30, 2006 (10:22 pm)
C&D said last year that the GS430 is better than an E500 and 528!
Wrong, the GS430 faced a E350, not a E500 at Car and Driver.
And the last IS did very well, behind only the G35 and 328i in "11 Sports Sedans" back in 2002.
Oh so now 3rd place is respectable, only when it comes to Lexus I guess.
And with 303HP, the GS350 will go forward and multiply!
Yet at the same time it renders the GS430 the most pointless car in a Lexus showroom. Where is the GS460?
#17353 of 24723 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [merc1]
Jul 30, 2006 (10:34 pm)
Apparently it is very hard to grasp because you just don't get it.
If you think that being a purist is all about how a car/drives handles the whole discusion is so lost on you Oac it isn't even funny.
The problem with you Merc1 is that your posts read like someone spoiling for a fight... that's why all the name-calling.... I am sorry, I won't oblige you. Read Designman, Tagman or BlkHemi's posts and compare to yours... difference is like night and day.
Fact is purists and HELM are not synonymous.... no matter the sugar coat and negative spin you try to put on it. Here we discuss High End Luxury Marque, or call them FULL-SIZE LUXURY SEDANS... That's the lil fact that you fail to grasp. There are no cars in this forum that a purist cares about.... so spare me the sermon about purists and who knows/does not know squat about nothing... Yes I'll repeat myself... you are no purist, simply an idealist, IMO !
I am off this bridge-to-nowhere point with you.. Go ahead and have fun with it.