High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

Messages Page 1731 of 2471: 1; ...; 1728; 1729; 1730; 1731; 1732; 1733; 1734; ...; 2471; Prev; Next; Last

#17298 of 24700 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [tagman] by oac Jul 28, 2006 (9:25 am)
Replying to: tagman (Jul 28, 2006 9:14 am) Are you saying that there is no such thing as pure luxury? Only pure performance? Why? Of course there are LOTS of cars designed solely for pure luxury... Maybach comes to mind. Ergo, others designed purely for performance, and I listed a few already... And there are the abridged ones... call them a "hybrid" and thats what you get mostly on the LPS forum, and to a lower extent here on HELM... That's one of the problems we have on this forum. The cars are designed for LUXURY yet we get all these talk about performance... If you want performance, why are you buying an S-class ? How many S-class buyers/leasee drives the car bcos of its "performance" ? We can talk about attributes of a HELM, but not brow-beat one car for not being a performance leader... These are luxury full-size (family) sedans first ! Welcome back ! You are already lifting the quality of the debate within your first 2 posts. I guess "moderation" is a good thing (Howard), eh ? Replies to this message: tagman (Jul 28, 2006 9:55 am) oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:31 am) tagman (Jul 28, 2006 11:31 am)
#17299 of 24700 Re: Getting up to speed [dewey] by ljflx Jul 28, 2006 (9:48 am)
Replying to: dewey (Jul 28, 2006 9:17 am) Well do you consider $250K and up affluent? And based on these posts people don't care what happens to their money?? How'd they get it in the first place? People who buy homes care about future money but people who buy cars don't? Now maybe what you are guys are saying is that more German cars are bought by inherited money. Then I can see some validity to your post. If you don't earn it you don't respect and if you do earn it then you do respect it. Now here's what else confuses me - the biggest piece of pride I heard from MB owners (until the past 5 years or so) was how fabulous the resale value of MB's were, in some cases holding 75+% of value after 4 years and 50k miles. Suddenly those same people don't give a hoot? Tag - you've beeen on vacation so I'll give you a break but rethink your post and think about all the MB buyers of the past. On this point, if you really believe it, we are worlds apart, or maybe 90% of the cas are leased so who cares about resale if you are leasing and the lease price is often not much more than an LS or comparable Lexus. Replies to this message: dewey (Jul 28, 2006 10:39 am) oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:39 am) blckislandguy (Jul 28, 2006 6:53 pm) tagman (Jul 28, 2006 7:47 pm) and 1 more... ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 7:39 pm) oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:00 pm)
#17300 of 24700 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [oac] by tagman Jul 28, 2006 (9:55 am)
Replying to: oac (Jul 28, 2006 9:25 am) Welcome back ! You are already lifting the quality of the debate within your first 2 posts. I guess "moderation" is a good thing (Howard), eh ? Thank you. Yes, I saw Howard's reference to my "moderate" posting style. No comment here. Let's take it a step further then . . . are you saying that performance and luxury do not co-exist well enough in the HELM category? At least for a purist, as you define it? TagMan Replies to this message: oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:31 am) tagman (Jul 28, 2006 11:31 am)
#17301 of 24700 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [tagman] by oac Jul 28, 2006 (10:31 am)
Replying to: tagman (Jul 28, 2006 9:55 am) ..... are you saying that performance and luxury do not co-exist well enough in the HELM category? At least for a purist, as you define it? Performance AND luxury surely can and do co-exist, that's what I mean by "hybrid" for HELM cars. When these co-exist, there are compromises made by the manufacturer. You can get an upgraded handling over, say a Buick, in an S-class or LS, but not the type of performance you'd get in an M. So we just need to put our debate in perspective and remember that the bias in HELM is to LUXURY not performance. The latter is simply an icing on the cake.... Hey, were you not supposed to be out of action until after Labor Day ? Get back to work, and catch up on those gadzillion e-mails awaiting your attention... Replies to this message: tagman (Jul 28, 2006 11:31 am)
#17302 of 24700 Re: Getting up to speed [ljflx] by dewey Jul 28, 2006 (10:39 am)
Replying to: ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 9:48 am) People who buy homes care about future money but people who buy cars don't? Now maybe what you are guys are saying is that more German cars are bought by inherited money. Then I can see some validity to your post. If you don't earn it you don't respect and if you do earn it then you do respect it. My business is catered solely to high net worth clients. Most earn their own money (although there are some heirs among them). It is easy to make the generalization you made above but I can assure you there are quite a few high earning non-heirs who drive expensive German cars. At the same time many of my clients dont even own a HELM. In other words what I am trying to say is that the fine art of pigeon-holing HELM buyers is an endeavor that involves more subjectivity than objectivity. Especially when there are no statistics that show what cars the "old rich" versus the "nouveau rich" own. A house is quite different from a car. Among my clients I dont know anybody who is motivated by resale values before buying a car(luxury or non-luxury). Except certain individuals in this forum (including myself)
#17303 of 24700 Re: Getting up to speed [ljflx] by oac Jul 28, 2006 (10:39 am)
Replying to: ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 9:48 am) Excellent points, Len. When you gross $200K+ in income, and you drive an LS, you must be unable to afford an S-class ! That's what I read from these kind of posts... Let's see, at $90K for an S550, you can probably lease one for the $1400 range (not exact # here, but roughly speaking). So at an income bracket north of $200K, this is going to send you to the poor-house ? Puleaze ! And now we must believe that Germancarfans who own an S-class could care less about resale values of their German automobiles... Talk about living in fantasy La La land ! Without good resale values, luxury cruisers are doomed to failure. Just ask Jaguar... even Audi to some extent... The strength of leasing is partly that the car will resell well after the leasing period, otherwise you or the leasing company eat the difference. Someone must pay for that resale value calculation/miscalculation in leases.... Meaning EVERYONE cares about resale - buyers/leasees and sellers/lessors... Replies to this message: blckislandguy (Jul 28, 2006 6:53 pm) tagman (Jul 28, 2006 7:47 pm) oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:08 pm) ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 7:39 pm) oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:00 pm)
#17304 of 24700 Re: Now for the good and not so good news!? [oac] by tagman Jul 28, 2006 (11:31 am)
Replying to: oac (Jul 28, 2006 10:31 am) Hey, were you not supposed to be out of action until after Labor Day ? Get back to work, and catch up on those gadzillion e-mails awaiting your attention I'm scheduled to be gone again the second half of August, and I do have a million things to catch up on, but I've got this short two to three week window to catch up on things and it is difficult to stay away from the forum after painfully missing a month. You are right, my friend . . . I'd better get to work. I'll check in with you later. TagMan
#17305 of 24700 For ljflx (Len) by cyclone4 Jul 28, 2006 (11:41 am)
Len, I think that you are probably the most qualified to answer this question. As you know I will be getting the new LS600hL when it becomes available next spring. I currently own (I paid cash) a 2004 LS430. I already have a couple of willing buyers for the LS430. My question is this: Would it be to my advantage to purchase outright or to lease the new LS600hL? At first, I was thinking that I was going to purchase. However, I have been having second thoughts lately. The technology is changing so fast with hybrids, etc. that it might be better if I lease it. In fact, we did lease the RX400h that my wife drives. It was a special one payment ($25,000) lease . We have a choice after 3 years (May 1 of 2008) whether to pay a balance of about $32,500 and own the RX400h or to give it up and get something new. I am very happy that we took this option since it gives us the freedom to do what we want after 3 years. I am almost positive that we will give it up and lease something new at that time. Who knows what the next generation RX hybrid will be like? It may be out of this world. So, what do you think I should do when the LS600hL is available? I know this is still pretty far into the future, but it does not hurt to ask. Replies to this message: ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 11:56 am) cyclone4 (Jul 28, 2006 12:18 pm) lexusguy (Jul 28, 2006 3:35 pm) cyclone4 (Jul 28, 2006 6:31 pm) lexusguy (Jul 29, 2006 1:10 am)
#17306 of 24700 Re: For ljflx Len) [cyclone4] by ljflx Jul 28, 2006 (11:56 am)
Replying to: cyclone4 (Jul 28, 2006 11:41 am) Impossible to answer at this point without knowing lease deals, residuals etc. On the basis of battery changes in the future I'd say its better to lease than to buy and throw the resale risk on Lexus or the financial institution. A simple way to view a lease vs buy financially without net present values and sophisticated caics is estimate your money trail. A 90K purcase after 3 years really cost you about $108K when you calc in the lost interest on the $90K at say 6%. A lease and buy comparison is simple. Lets say your buyout is $54K and the lease deal is $1400 a month, so you are out 50,400 on the lease, about 4,600 on interest income lost, about $500 on lease fee and the $54K buyout, assuming you buy at lease end. Pretty close under those assumptions. Is it worth an extra grand to $1500 to throw the risk onto the financial institution vs being locked in to your purchase? Naturally the better you think you'll do vs 6% the more you are skewed toward leasing. Replies to this message: cyclone4 (Jul 28, 2006 12:18 pm)
#17307 of 24700 Re: For ljflx Len) [ljflx] by cyclone4 Jul 28, 2006 (12:18 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jul 28, 2006 11:56 am) Thanks so much for your expertise Len. This does help out a lot. I guess more will be revealed next spring. I may ask your opinion again at that time.