Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#16937 of 24726 Re: Oac [blkhemi]
Jul 09, 2006 (11:14 am)
Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....
How about the Skyline GT-R?
"The GT-R's success in motor racing was formidable, particularly in the annual race at the Mount Panorama circuit in Bathurst, Australia, where the champion three years running was a GT-R (despite receiving additional weight penalties in years two and three due to its unbeatable performance), and in the Japanese GT series where it has remained dominant up to the present day.
No other race victories by the GT-R could escape without controversies, at the 1990 Macau Grand Prix Guia touring car race, the factory backed R32 driven by Masahiro Hasemi led the race from the start to the finishing line which caused a wave of protests by the European entrants. The following year, the car was forced to carry a weight penalty of 140 kg very much to his frustration and had to settle for fourth place against the top three DTM specification race winning BMW M3 and Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II. The GT-R's success at Mount Panorama in 1991 and 1992, both by Jim Richards, led to a change in formula regulations, which came to exclude turbocharged and four-wheel-drive cars in subsequent years. It also led indirectly to a move to the Super Touring Car category in the JTCC and the creation of the JGTC grand touring car series in Japan, where GT-Rs can only compete in rear-wheel drive form - and still win."
The Skyline has dominated racing for 30+ years. It was so good that the Europeans had to whine "unfair! unfair!" and get the Skyline crippled so they could at least have a chance.
#16938 of 24726 Re: Oac [lexusguy]
Jul 09, 2006 (2:51 pm)
And with all that said, we're still waiting on the car here in the States. I've driven the car in Osaka, and to tell you the truth, the car is wicked fast with a very capable suspension to match. I'm very aware of it's many award-winning races and it's legendary heritage for over 30 years. This car may very well change the perception of how the cars in it's class are viewed.
I'm very glad that the Japanese have finally gotten serious enough to send street versions of the race cars to the States, as with every German make. But to say it will change the face of the game is a little reaching....
#16939 of 24726 Re: D-man [designman]
Jul 09, 2006 (4:39 pm)
"Does someone looking to spend $150k on a real sports car want to buy from a company with that type of heritage? "
Doesn't make much sense. You know 16 years ago people were saying pretty much the same thing about Lexus. You know it went kinda like this..."Toyota has no luxury heritage, who's gonna buy a $40K luxury Toyota?". Boy, look what happened with those types of statements.
I'm not saying a Lexus $150K Sports Car will be successful. ONly time and sales figures will tell whether it's a success or a failure. But I will tell you the heritage B.S. is lame for one, and second Lexus has already proved a great product can overcome a lack of "heritage".
#16940 of 24726 Re: D-man [ljflx]
Jul 09, 2006 (4:51 pm)
I never denied that Lexus or Toyota is not profitable; but it does not change a fact that they do not produce any exiting vehicles. The last one was Supra in 1990’s. The statement that they can build anything they want is just bogus; Google or Microsoft can build any car they want as well; they sure have enough money, even though they not in the car business. Why can you just admit it; Lexus is good at building luxury cruisers and LS is a perfect example; argument that they can build exiting car does not change a fact that they never did.
#16941 of 24726 Re: D-man [pg48477]
Jul 09, 2006 (5:09 pm)
Huh. May not be "exiting" to you but a whole lot of people believe the IS series is pretty exciting. Sure maybe not as exciting as the BMW 3-series, but it's pretty close to BMW, and alot closer to a exciting car like a 3-series than probably any other car in it's class. The Lexus SC of the mid to late 90's was also a pretty exciting car, but you probably wouldn't know that anyway, that is after all how it got on C&Ds 10-best list year after year. The previous IS was also a exciting car, again maybe not as exciting as a 3-series, but darn close.
#16942 of 24726 Re: D-man [maxhonda99]
Jul 09, 2006 (5:29 pm)
IS is an all American exiting 0-60 in 5.1, not exactly what exiting is in my book. If you would drive one you would know it is not a drivers car, just like any other Lexus.
#16943 of 24726 Re: D-man [maxhonda99]
Jul 09, 2006 (5:38 pm)
Not here to argue the success of the IS. It is close to the 3-Series. but definetely no cigar. And others in the class, mainly the G35, nips at it's heels a lot better than the IS does. Sure the IS has hp, but it doesn't have the bones to scare a 330i. The previous IS was about as exciting as watching paint dry, which is why it often came in the back of the pack in many tests. Even Lexus admitted that a tarted-up Japanese market Toyota won't cut it here, hence the magnificent 2nd-gen.
The SC of the '90's had very little competition. And yes, it did place in C&D's 10 Best, but with the Lincoln Mark and Caddy Eldo as your main competition, there was little to cry over. And the current SC is, well, bluntly a dissappointment in style and handling, all of the things cars in this class are suppose to possess, hence it's lack of public attraction.
#16944 of 24726 Re: D-man [pg48477]
Jul 09, 2006 (6:54 pm)
IS all american?? THat is ridiculously funny!! By that measure the only cars that are exciting are either made by BMW or Porsche. Nice joke!
#16945 of 24726 Re: D-man [blkhemi]
Jul 09, 2006 (7:00 pm)
Some of your statements are funny. The previous IS came in the back of the pack in may tests, huh? I suggest you do a check and go pull out every old major magazine comparison test and see how many of those comparisons the IS actually came in at the back of the pack. Most of them, the IS actually posted in the top couple.
The SC would have never made it to top 10 had a Mark or Eldo been it's main competition, hence the SC300 5-speed manual was the only model that was a 10-best. If you think the SC was a competitor to the Eldo or Mark you truly shouldn't be talking in this forum.''
Just my two pennies. Continue with your exciting two pennies.
#16946 of 24726 Re: D-man [maxhonda99]
Jul 09, 2006 (7:58 pm)
Make all of the arguments against heritage that you want. Lexus was successful because of Toyota’s heritage, that of price and reliability. Back when Lexus was launched buyers had nothing to go by except heritage. If Lexus was a scratch-built creation of Handyman Harry Inc. instead of Toyota, guess what, they don’t sell many cars because Handyman Harry's reliability is unknown. Same thing with Acura. The Legend was a luxury Honda and people like the idea of these cars because of what Toyota and Honda brought to the table well before then.