Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#16813 of 24723 Re: Why in question?? [blkhemi]
Jun 26, 2006 (10:29 pm)
Performance. The LexIthinkIcans can rant all you want about a 3 year old test that the LS "won", but if the S500 was there, it would've been an entirely different playing field. True, both the A8 and S is a step behind the 7 in the adhesion department, but the Lexus is, well, Park Avenue-esque in the turns(don't want to sound "bad"-but it is). So strange that all of sudden MB,BMW, and Audi are getting hammered on performance models of the big cars, but why did Lexus say that the "600" will have the performance to hang with the "big guys"?? Now Lexus has joined the autobahn stormers?? Very interesting indeed.
There has already been such a test way back in 2001, the only time the LS430 faced the S500 and the S500 won but of course that old test won't be acknowledged here, only the old tests that matter.
#16814 of 24723 Re: Merc [oac]
Jun 26, 2006 (10:38 pm)
Merc1: Every one else is biased but not you. After disecting your entire diatribe and snide remarks, I condense everything down to this: all you got left to hang your hat on is handling, eh ? Talk of desperation... Lexus provides me nothing in return beyond the pleasure of their cars and trucks. What about you ? You get paid for trumpeting MBs are great the world over ??? Geez... what if an MB outhandles an LS, then what ? You get a victory lap for that ? 'scuse moi....
Sorry Oac, but it all sounds very desperate to me. I said that I didn't think you knew anything about handling, nothing snide or anything nearly on the level of your comeback about "having a real job". You're seemingly forgetting what you write from day to day here. It was YOU that took it there not me. All that about what Lexus provides you is yet another diversion from what the debate was in the first place. Who in the world was debating what Lexus provides you or anything like that. It isn't my fault you make your (always) pro-Lexus post so easy to disprove. See how you never addressed the original issue here, only bogged it down in all this needless talk about everything else but that.
No handling isn't all I've got to hang my hat on concerning a Mercedes over a Lexus, but why go into that again when you'll simply say that all of it doesn't matter. Nothing matters unless Lexus is the winner in a particular category or capability.
The point of the discussion before you turned into something else was that the S-Class was a better handler than the LS430, something you couldn't admit when nearly everyone else here could. Now of course since you still can't concede that you'll revert back to how the LS was superior to the old S-Class anyway, read: I won't admit this about the LS430's handling so I'll go back to square one.
Like I have said, repeatedly, NO one has tested an LS with 18" rims AND the Euro suspension against a comparable S. If you know of it, let's hear it. I am sure YOU have not driven such a car against your much vaunted S-class, despite your holier-than-thou attitude and knowledge about MBs and the LS.
Likewise the car was rarer than a VW Phaeton and because of that no mag ever tested one. Tuff I guess. Again, you're reaching for something rarer than henn's teeth, but then you turn around and talk about the "real world" yet no one really ever bought this LS430 with the Euro option. That make no sense and contridicts your earlier posts.
As to why I don't go around kicking tires every weekend cos I got better things to do, sorry if that offends your automotive spirits.... I got lots better things to do than indulge in a one-track-minded automotive digest like some people here on Edmunds. I don't need to drive all these cars to form an opinion, just as your not owning any of these cars make you an "informed" poster... Sheesh !
Like I stated before this these types of comments are your typical last gasp when you know you're done with a particlar point that can't be made. Now one doesn't need to drive the car to form an opinion on it? Apparently you need to as far as handling goes and you'd really need to be deft at finding that LS430 Euro. Now I don't have to own the car to make an informed post? Another reversal of something previous implied (for years). How in the world is one to be informed on any of these cars without driving them?
#16815 of 24723 Re: This is like abbott and costello [oac]
Jun 26, 2006 (10:46 pm)
Why not give the LS its due props for showing up along with the big dogs from Germany, and besting them in that comparo ? Seems fair to me... If the S or Audi or 7-series had won that comparo we won't hear the end of it, but since its the LS, you don't want to hear it, and rather dismiss it, or explain it away as something less than factual... Just not the kind of viewpoint I'd expect from the many intelligentsias we have on this board...
Likewise it would seem "fair" to me to say that the LS430 beat the S430, not the entire "S-Class". Your top of the line Lexus has won against the entry-level S-Class. It isn't as if the LS430 has beaten the entire "S-Class".
The only time the S500 was compared to the LS430, the S500 won.
#16816 of 24723 Re: HMMMMMM... [houdini1]
Jun 26, 2006 (10:52 pm)
I think I am seeing a pattern here. Whenever anyone mentions an objective way of measuring the relative merits of the LS vs. the S (resale value, residual value, lease rates, etc.)the Eurofans clam up tighter than the bark on a tree. In these categories the LS is the undisputed CHAMP. This is a hard one for the Eurofans to spin, thus the deafening silence
Nope, I was gone for a few days I'm back and there is nothing here to spin. This about the handling is as cut and dry as the LS430's reliability and quality. Problem is I have no trouble admitting what the previous S didn't do so good compared to the LS430, but a select few Lexusfans can't admit squat about the LS430 leading the viewers here to think the LS430 was perfect which it was not.
#16817 of 24723 Re: OT...Smart in the US [syswei]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:02 pm)
What do you think about that? A mistake or do you see it working?
#16818 of 24723 Re: Awesome [ljflx]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:06 pm)
The average LS buyer earns $250K a year and that was a stat quoted 3 or 4 years ago. Not all of them may be able to buy an S-class but a very high percentage can. That argument is a weak one.
Really? So I guess the non-average LS430 buyer who really can't afford to buy (not lease) an S-Class doesn't count. This is a very old argument about price and yet it still fails to sink in here that price does make a difference sometimes. To think that it doesn't is equally "weak" thinking IMO.
#16819 of 24723 Re: I saw [houdini1]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:12 pm)
Mercedes is a gussied up Chrysler, BMW in a big Mini and Jaguar is a fancy Ford Taurus. That would make about as much sense.
Actually it wouldn't because those cars aren't built by the same group of folks even though they are under the same corparate unbrella. Also, none of those cars look/drive like the lesser cars you've incorrectly linked them too. You Lexus fans can't have it both ways. Toyotas are about boring, reliabile, high quality transportation and that is what Lexus does also with more luxury. The only Lexus models that fundamentally differ from this (or at least try to) are the GS and IS, which are supposed to be sportier. Funny thing is though is that they aren't a match for the sportier cars in their respective classes kinda like those supposedly sportier Toyotas like the Camry SE and Corolla "S". Toyota's basic fundamentals in carmaking crosses all of their models no amount of Lexus spin can change that. Lexus can't even escape their basic Toyota-based thinking/roots long enough to build a truly sporty car to rival BMW, like they said they would. That may change in the next 18 months, but in the now it hasn't. Like a Lexus and Toyota are so far apart in execution, that is ridiculous.
#16820 of 24723 Re: Awesome [ljflx]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:14 pm)
Seriously, all previous arguments aside...do you think the new S will do better in this regard? I mean the car doesn't appear to be the problem-child the first batch of W220s were back in 1999. The new car is certainly physically built better than the W220 ever was.
#16821 of 24723 Re: Oac [designman]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:19 pm)
Exactly. That (about brands being dead and buried) is the major difference here.
#16822 of 24723 Re: Another analogy [oac]
Jun 26, 2006 (11:26 pm)
Like TagMan and other Eurofans have opined about affordability of S-class vs an LS, where S-class buyers can afford an LS, while not all LS owners can afford an S. What's the point here ? That LS owners are poorer than S-class owners ? Like Len pointed out, average income group for LS owners is $250K 3 buying years ago.... So what does ownership of a $50-70K car vs ownership of a $75-90K S-class mean ? Like another $50K higher in annual income, if that ? I have argued that many who drive an S don't pay cold hard cash for these cars. I may not have the hard facts to prove this, but neither can anyone prove the opposite. If anyone has facts that majority of S owners paid CASH for their cars, pls bring it out.
The problem here is that you've maintain for the longest now that price is not an issue and all I and others have said is that is for some buyers, never at any point said that it was an issue for all buyers or that LS430 buyers were "poor" or "poorer" than S-Class buyers, that is what you got from it because no one has said that. No LS430 defender except maybe one has ever even entertained the notion about price being at least one factor in the LS430's sales lead. Yet we hear this constantly about sales yet not all of the factors behind this are ever addressed only that it proves that the LS is "better".
No one said that a great deal or what percentage of S-Class buyers pay cash either. Some could go the traditional route with a trade/down payment and finance the rest. That would make a difference to those types of buyers with a 20-30K price difference staring them in the face between a LS and a S-Class.
So if most owners of the LS and S drive these on lease purchases, do factors like interest rates, money factor, promotions, discounts, etc.... play a significant role in the drive-out price of that lease ? That's when you look at the 3-year timeline when many of these cars go off-lease. What are they truly worth, not the hyper inflated/bloated MSRP these cars are listed for ? And show us which S-class/LS430 is selling at MSRP, eh
Back to the same argument with a switch to 3-year values because the first part about sales and what role price might play in those sales just can't be accepted so we'll now revert to something else.
BTW, the new S550 is selling at or near MSRP as will the LS460. Neither will stay at the level forever though.