Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#16605 of 24726 Re: Merc [oac]
Jun 19, 2006 (9:54 pm)
GaryH, thanks for that real-world post. Same thing I have said repeatedly here. The LS does NOT handle like a boat. Put an 18" rim on that car and see how it handles. How many auto mag comparos have ever tested the LS w/18" rims ? Almost none.... But those who have this on their LS can attest to its handling ability. This is from actual owners, you know, the one that drives this car EVERYDAY not a weekend tire-kicking episode on a 2-mile jaunt, or an auto mag report of a 15-mile test drive.
Yet we're talking about handling on a family outing and that is supposed to be a clear indication of how the car handles? Again, no one here is saying that any of these cars are sports cars only that the Lexus LS DOES NOT match the Euro competion. What was the point of Lexus staging such a rediculous event with a handling course? That is what you should be asking Lexus. On THEIR course the car was pitiful and this was low speeds. How much handling are you going to get out of a family outing. I'm starting to think that even discussing hanlding here is pointless if anyone thinks the LS430 "handles".
Talking of innovation, how many cogs does the new S550 have vs how many are going into the new LS460 ? And how efficient can your engine be ? A mere 4.6L in the LS puts down as much power as the 5.5L (almost a 1L more) in the S...
Gee now when MB came out with a 7-speed the Lexusfans dismissed it as useless overkill and said that a 6-speed was good enough, now of course the tune has changed in typical fashion. Now MB will need to come up with a 10-speed in order to become #1 again based on all these johnny-come-lately "innovations".
Should we even debate the technology in the new motors in the LS460 and S550 ??? Forgetaboutit.... How about a 40GB hard-drive in the new LS, what storage size is in the new S again ? Oh, I forgot, can the new S550 park itself as the LS460L can ? Did I see a leather-stitched dash as in the 600hL or a vinyl/wood dash in the new S550 ? How many speakers are in the new LS460L vs in the new S550 ? And accident-avoidance features in these two cars, which is more high-tech ? Both cars now wear 18" and 19" upgraded tires, so we should expect significant improvements in "performance" from both cars...
I guess now that when Lexus updates existing technology they automatically become an "innovator". This has to be the weakest list of "innovations" I've every seen. All of it is an upgrade on existing tech. The Lexus has more storage space on its hard drive compared to the S550, but the S550 has the same exact thing, but not as much space. WOW that took a lot of work on Lexus' part. Forget that the S550 has been out since Sept 2005 plenty of time for Lexus to change their specs to include more space. Now that is innovation. Uh...do I see a leather stitched dash on the S600? Yes. Now leather on the dash is an innovation. Quick someone call Bentley and tell them that they have been upstaged!
What I see in the negative posts from Euro car fans often smacks of jealousy of Lexus. The new kid on the block kicking the butt of its senior statesman, MB.
That is exactly what it is, but in the reverse. Whenever a Lexus can't be #1 in a particular area the criteria is dismissed. Lexus' whole being was based on just envy of Mercedes-Benz. Their flagship car has been up to this point the very defintion of jealousy. I mean to take a whole bodystyle and copy it says something when you do it for your "marquee" car. Lexus tags their top LS a "600" to ape from Mercedes' S600. Another clear signal as to who the target (read: who they want to be like) is. As for their fans they suffer from it too. Any mention of Lexus has to include the obligatory comment about the destruction of Mercedes-Benz. It is never BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac, Infiniti, just Mercedes and that doesn't say who is jealous of who I don't know what does.
#16606 of 24726 Re: Merc [garyh1]
Jun 19, 2006 (9:58 pm)
Sorry, merc1 and Tagman, at least shod with performance tires, the LS handles very well. Drive one with these tires (but without the "Euro suspension" which is how they are coming to the dealers these days), and I think you may change your one-note tune. But of course, even more relevant for the future will be how the LS460 handles, and NO ONE HAS DRIVEN ONE YET!
The LS430 "handles" compared to what though?
I haven't read anything about that experience that says anything about the car having any real "handling" Gary. What I read was about a nice family outing at moderate speeds. The fact of the matter is that when these cars are driven aggressively (which most people don't, never said they did), the LS can't cut it. That is all I, Tagman and Designman (and all the professionals) are saying. I've drive the LS back to back with the previous S500 on a course Lexus provided and the S500 handled much better.
#16607 of 24726 Re: There are risks and there are RISKS [oac]
Jun 19, 2006 (10:04 pm)
We will just have to agree to disagree here... Personalization is a key aspect of ultra high-end cars, the likes of RR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Ferrari, etc.. where each car is hand-built to a customer specification. That is personalization, not a boutique designed to please all... Put another way, why would anyone pony up $450K for an SLR when he shares service bays with a $30K C280 ?
Interesting so I guess the fact that every other Lexus on the road is just like every other Lexus except for colors and some options doesn't hurt their image? The majority or Lexuses on the road wear beige leather and bright-colored wood like some type of badge of honor. Mercedes has so much customization available now it isn't even funny.
That said, none of these cars will ever be on the level of Bentley, Aston-Martin or anything like that, these are mass-produced cars. Lexus doesn't even offer anything special on one car from the next, no performance version no special interiors, nothing. It is equally interesting to read all this about the SLR sharing a service bay with a C280 being some sort of problem? How many times do you think a SLR owner ever walks to the back to see the service bay? I seriously doubt any MB dealer would even require that SLR owner bring the car in as opposed to going and picking it up for them.
They'd buy a SLR because it is a amazing vehicle one in league so far above anything from Lexus so far, not because of what it has to share service bays with. I know Lexus fans get a kick out of going for service so I guess this might be an issue at Lexus dealership when they start adding 100K+ models that still have to share the service bays with the glorified Camry, the ES.
Truthfully why would it matter? This is not a VW service bay in which a "regular" car like a Jetta is sitting beside a different breed of buyer like those of the Phaeton. The services bays at a MB or Lexus dealership are supposed to be to a certain standard anyway and it isn't like there are that many SLRs to come in for this to be a problem anyway. They sell maybe 200 of them a year. That isn't going to create some type of glut of SLRs in the service bays with the "regular" Mercedes-Benzes.
#16608 of 24726 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [topspin628]
Jun 19, 2006 (10:09 pm)
Very good post. The only thing I disagree with is:
Lexus is plain and simply, the best quality you can buy as far as reliability and the way it's screwed together.
Reliability yes, but the build part no. Any Audi and several newer Mercedes are built as good or better than any Lexus as far as their physical build. Audi in particular is often called the standard in that area. The new S-Class is built much better than the W220 was, especially the 2000-2002 models.
Other than that little detail I agree with what you've said.
#16609 of 24726 Re: Many LS buyers can NOT afford or choose an S-Class [hpowders]
Jun 19, 2006 (10:14 pm)
That's where I don't get Oac's jealousy claim against the Euros:
All S-Class buyers can buy an LS, but not all LS buyers can afford an S-Class.
I think he's got this jealousy thing backward
Yes, definitely. A new Lexus can't be talked about unless Mercedes is mentioned as being the car to be destroyed. This charge about jealousy is really something.
#16610 of 24726 Re: Many LS buyers can NOT afford or choose an S-Class [tagman]
Jun 19, 2006 (10:17 pm)
Thanks for re-wording what I've been saying all along. Price matters one minute here and then the next it doesn't. Just like status, number of gears, or 0-60 times. If Lexus has the advantage then it is seen as a major selling point, but if it one of the Euros, nope.
#16611 of 24726 Re: Selection is a good thing , not bad [tagman]
Jun 19, 2006 (10:25 pm)
Yeah I didn't get that one either. Lexus has nothing on the order of "personalization" of MB,BMW or Audi yet it is brought up here concerning Lexus. The fact that Mercedes offers so many choices has been one of the reasons they've been so highly regarded all these years. What does an LS buyer do after they've had a 1/2 dozen LSs? There is no coupe or roadster at Lexus that equals the LS like there is a Mercedes. There are no performance models, no 4-seat cabriolets, sports cars? Nothing. Even Cadillac provides more choice now. Lexus is all sedans and suvs at the moment and that is the only reason why this about having too many models is a problem, because Lexus doesn't have anything to compare.
Before you arrived here Tagman there was a knock on MB/BMW/Audi/Jaguar about them making all their cars look alike. It was seen as a "problem" for the C to look like the S and the front of the SL to look like the front of the CLK, but since Lexus has now (finally) adopted the same policy by making all their cars look more or less alike, the IS and LS, but in different sizes like the C & S were, its all good now. This about the having too many models too with fall by the wayside after Lexus gets done flushing out their lineup. That about having more models is definitely just a nit-pic for the sake of doing so underlined by the fact that Lexus is going the same route really exposes that claim for what really it is.
#16612 of 24726 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [topspin628]
Jun 20, 2006 (4:13 am)
Now there’s a Lexus post I can relate to… no rose-colored glasses, no bluster, not an ounce of fat… it plays to the LS's strong points and is probably a perfect example of why many buy an LS.
#16613 of 24726 Re: Merc [killerbunny]
Jun 20, 2006 (4:14 am)
The "handling" card can only be played to a certain extend. The LS may not be the best handling in its class, but it does not need to be.
I agree, and that’s the point Lexicans should stick with. Instead, some of them try to score points with handling only to get trumped. It’s like the average Joe thinking he can hit a Mariano Rivera fastball. After all it’s pretty obvious what Lexus is successful with. When a Lexus buyer says he doesn’t like a teeth-chattering ride, he prefers the softer luxury ride, this is what I respect and there’s nothing to debate. The problem is when they get greedy in these discussions and go outside the area of Lexus product benefits. I don’t know who they think they are fooling. They can’t win a performance argument and they shouldn’t even try.
The LS is a pure luxury car. We need to respect the differences in these vehicles.
Jun 20, 2006 (4:18 am)
This talk of tires is way off the mark. You can’t just put on low-profile tires and say a car handles good. The entire suspension has to have the proper components in the way of struts, shocks, springs, sway bars, rigid chassis and frame, balance and proper wheel alignment settings—caster, camber, toe angles. In addition, the steering should have a lower numerical ratio so it is responsive. Lexus suspension and steering are tuned for the luxury ride which is soft.
The Legacy GT was mention recently and this is a perfect example of how low-profile tires on a car with soft suspension do not do the trick. It’s like an obese person expecting a pair of sneakers to work wonders for him. I mean, there are other things to be concerned about, the least of which are the shoes.
I don't like low-profile tires anyway. The old BMWs and Porsches had 15 inch wheels and I would think they still outhandle many of today's stars. Even the track rats are shunning the extreme low profiles. There is a point of diminishing returns. I think today's wheels and tires are more about bling. The Conestoga wagon look is in.