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High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages,  Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

#16487 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [hpowders] by tagman Jun 17, 2006 (9:05 am)
Replying to: hpowders (Jun 17, 2006 8:56 am) my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me.   Damn good instinct, IMO.   So, later this year if I get that Lotus Elise, what games should I expect?   TagMan Replies to this message: hpowders (Jun 17, 2006 10:21 am) anthonyp (Jun 17, 2006 12:45 pm) tagman (Jun 17, 2006 1:52 pm)
#16488 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [tagman] by hpowders Jun 17, 2006 (10:21 am)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 9:05 am) Well, whenever I go bicycle riding ( road bike), I know where to find my crash helmet-the passenger seat of the 545.   With a Lotus, even I may come out of my shell and initiate a challenge.   Just get some good metal polish. The new sheriff in town must wear a very shiny badge!   They'll swarm from the left and the right from hundreds of feet away at warp factor 2 with only one mission-to cut right in front of you. After they do so, they will smugly reduce their speed. Mission accomplished.   This weekend I will devote to running through a list of serious excuses why I cannot move back to NYC and its 60 mph average highway speed so I can perhaps get a Cayman and stay in Florida with its 85 mph average speed. The Commander has her heart set on moving back to LI, the land of massive congestion and property taxes.
#16489 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [tagman] by anthonyp Jun 17, 2006 (12:45 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 9:05 am) I had a chance to check out the Lotus, and is realy appears to be a fun car...I didn`t ask for a drive but am sure it would be a `bullet` The workmanship was great, along with the fit and finish...Once in and seated, fit like a glove...It --imo--should be a special car for special times....Tony Replies to this message: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 1:52 pm)
#16490 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [tagman] by oac Jun 17, 2006 (12:58 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 8:40 am) It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough".   With regards to many of the measureable vital statistics, the Mercedes shines. With regards to the reliability, it is a statistic that favors the Lexus, but realize that reliability can occur at ANY price tier, and frequently does so at the economy tier...   I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough."   Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation...   Who are these quotes from ? All are from Germancarfans on this HELM board... And why do I point these out ? Its bcos contrary to the perception being thrown out here, its actually the Germancarfans that constantly harp on RELIABILITY..... How many Lexophiles point out reliability, relative to how many Germancarfans do ? Sorry, the more you guys talk about this insane point, the more it smarks of your defensive aspect of it. Admit it, the two words - LS and reliability - just eats at you everytime... Its time to get over it, pls...   No one in their right minds will ever say that the cars in this forum are junk and unreliable.... How insane can that be ????? I mean, it simply belittles our collective intelligence if any of us were to insinuate such. What is more pertinent is that the cars we talk about in this forum are ALL excellent cars in their own rights, with their biases....   Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum. In the same vein, pls reduce the worn-out "performance" issue of the S vs the LS. As many of you have agreed, most HELM buyers are not concerned with skidpads or slalom numbers, so why harp on it ?   Replies to this message: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 1:46 pm) merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 10:54 pm)
#16491 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [oac] by tagman Jun 17, 2006 (1:46 pm)
Replying to: oac (Jun 17, 2006 12:58 pm) Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum.   oac - I get your point, but heck, I could pull many posts out the way you did to show that Lexus fans do indeed bring up the reliability issue plenty of times.   But, beyond that, I think that the Eurocar fans sometimes bring it up just to find SOMETHING to compliment the Lexus. Just kidding, oac.   Well, OK, let's see if you guys will in fact stop bragging about the reliability, or coming off as superior by calling the German cars junk or posting lemons.   TagMan
#16492 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [anthonyp] by tagman Jun 17, 2006 (1:52 pm)
Replying to: anthonyp (Jun 17, 2006 12:45 pm) Tony - Thanks so much for that feedback on the Lotus Elise. I keep reading more reviews and watching more videos and they are all exceptional. I'm expecting to drive it in early August, and I'm already thinking that red with a beige interior would be the classic sports car color to get. BTW, I was just told that the '07's will be coming in at the end of September or early October, so if my decision is made in August, I think that it might make sense to wait 60 days and get an '07.   If I don't like it, the Cayman (or 911) surely makes a lot of sense. Thanks again.   TagMan
#16493 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [hpowders] by ljflx Jun 17, 2006 (6:12 pm)
Replying to: hpowders (Jun 17, 2006 4:25 am) Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road? For the record I've seen more S-class cars being towed on flatbeds from people's driveways than any car on the road. I've got plenty of friends and acquaintances that have German cars and many are disgusted with too many visits to the repair shop and high repair bills. These are probably the type of people that are reporting the data that causes the bad reliability scores. None of them - to my knowledge - ever got stuck on the road though one of them had an E-class that had it's brakes lock up and he had it towed to the dealership because he was scared to drive it again. But if it had happened to them that would have been the coup-de-grace. Several of these folks have switched over to Lexus when they wanted a new car or SUV for two reasons - they wanted the reliability and the brand has the cache name these days. Many of these folks have Lexus vehicles (and love them) and a BMW or MB in the same garages now. Oddly none have Audi and don't think or speak of it on the same terms of MB, BMW or Lexus. The other thing I've seen happen here locally is the rich snapping up the IS for their kids and as a play car for themselves. Why? Reliability. Lexus and reliability are synonyms in peoples minds these days. It's becoming as common as the term "xerox this". But in this case those young folks are getting hooked on the car and its performance as well as reliability, all of which become a major enhancement for Lexus as a brand. Dismiss reliabilty all you want with silly thoughts like cars not seen on the side of the road. But that extreme is hardly the definition of bad reliability. Replies to this message: hpowders (Jun 17, 2006 6:40 pm) blkhemi (Jun 17, 2006 7:13 pm) ljflx (Jun 17, 2006 8:25 pm) tagman (Jun 17, 2006 9:45 pm) lexusguy (Jun 17, 2006 11:11 pm) and 2 more... blkhemi (Jun 18, 2006 8:33 am) and 3 more... merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 11:14 pm) and 5 more... hpowders (Jun 18, 2006 3:30 am)
#16494 of 24700 A HELM Dream Come True by hpowders Jun 17, 2006 (6:29 pm)
The World Cup final match:   Germany vs. Japan   It is possible, though doubtful.
#16495 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [ljflx] by hpowders Jun 17, 2006 (6:40 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 17, 2006 6:12 pm) "Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road."   Because the worst fear people have when a car is listed as below average in reliability is getting stuck in a vehicle that won't start; not an electrical glitch causing the "get service now" light to flash by mistake-the latter much more likely as a real world reliability problem-annoying-yes, major-no. People always fear the worst which is irrational, given the sophistication of today's vehicles.   Perhaps those flatbed trucks are for regular maintenance service pick-ups or being used to transfer the vehicle from one owner to another. Who knows? One can't assume just because a MB is on a flat-bed, that there is automatically something wrong with it.
#16496 of 24700 Re: What makes one car "BETTER" than another? [ljflx] by blkhemi Jun 17, 2006 (7:13 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 17, 2006 6:12 pm) C'mon LJ, how can the IS "have" the Lexus somewhat better than average reliablity when it hasn't been out in the long-term yet? Remember, the old IS actually scored less than the 3 Series in some quality and reliability tests. The 3.5L V-6 has already seen 7 TSB's(2 of which are major-fuel supply and TCC for the tranny) in all '06 models equipped with it from the Avalon to the RAV4 and IS350. And this proves that it is more reliable than German brands, whose BMW 3-Series has been without recall and scoring huge in customer satisfaction(JDP notwithstanding) in both quality and overall perception?   The fact that "plenty" of your friends gave up the German cars in lieu of Lexus' is a revolving door. I've got "plenty" of people I know that have come from Lexus and vow never to return, even with the encroaching LS coming, may it be personal or business reasons. Reliablity or not, which admittedly is a Lexus strongpoint, tells most of the story on the youngest brand.   And for the kids play toy, trust me, the richies will definetely want to cruise around in an M3 or S4 over the unproven IS. Even an EVO MR or WRX STI would be better. Just take a look at some of the forums and online clubs. No IS to be mentioned. Ever. Those four cars have the street cred and notarity to be the car to be seen in. The IS, while fun and fast, doesn't have a manual with the 3.5 for 1(a huge setback for the fast and furious set around here in LI, one of the richest parts of the country), and 2, the IS350 looks like the 250 with bigger wheels, no difference whatsoever.   BTW: Besides the supposed reliablity and upscale Buick persona, exactly what does Lexus have over the Germans? Oh and the price thing is really stale now. For the base price of an LS, you surely won't get all of the standard equipment most of the Germans have, MB and Audi for sure. For instance, for the supposed innovation leader, why is nav still an option? SO safe, then why do you still have to pay for additional airbags? So adept yet the so-called Euro suspension makes the ride worst and handling that much more unpredictable and lousy, why? I can go on.   This is in no way a Germancarfan attempt at reducing Lexus as I've said before, finally the company is on the move big time. They have flaws, but don't they all? But this whole thing about Lexus is better in every single way has gotta stop. All of a sudden the Lexus goes from being a cruiser to being the TOP PERFORMER? Very wishful thinking. This on the heels a 3 year old C&D test? A test so un believeably rigged from the begining that it should've never taken place. Why pit a less powerful S430 against the 290hp(then) LS430 when clearly the S500 would've tore it to shreds? It's not MB's fault they still haven't gave the car more than 300-hp like every other carmaker did, oh, 6 years ago. Innovation? Hardly. Replies to this message: ljflx (Jun 17, 2006 8:25 pm) tagman (Jun 17, 2006 9:45 pm) lexusguy (Jun 17, 2006 11:11 pm) hpowders (Jun 18, 2006 3:36 am) hpowders (Jun 18, 2006 4:38 am) blkhemi (Jun 18, 2006 8:33 am) killerbunny (Jun 18, 2006 12:31 pm) lexusguy (Jun 18, 2006 1:25 pm) ljflx (Jun 18, 2006 5:52 pm) merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 11:14 pm) topspin628 (Jun 19, 2006 12:47 pm) and 4 more... hpowders (Jun 18, 2006 3:30 am)

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