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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Benz:  Porsche: BMW:  Audi:  (30s and 00s but very sketchy) Jaguar: Rolls Royce: (Fraudulent heritage, propaganda) bentley: Aston Martin: Land Rover: Lotus: (great heritage, especially F1 and mid-engine road cars, truly innovative, english charm, best handling along with Porsche and Ferrari) Ferrari: (everyone from stockholm to South Africa and LA to Singapore knows what ferrari is and what it has accomplished) Lamborghini: (fraudulent, never raced, like a neutered bull) Maserati: Lexus: Acura:  Infiniti:
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 7:07 pm) First Place Lexus LS430 If you just walked up and asked, we'd say this is not a Car and Driver sort of car. But like gravity, the Lexus kept pulling on us. It's so confident. It does so many things beautifully. It's like the salesman who never quits, and finally, you find yourself agreeing with him. "Yeah, why didn't I think of that?" The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better. If you really want muscles, opt for the sport suspension with 18-inch summer tires. The 17s on the test car were quick to moan when pushed. Skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g. But don't confuse that with stumbling behavior. This is an agile dancer wearing slippery shoes. It's best that you have a light touch on the controls when you hustle. The steering and the brakes are almost delicate in their feel. You must caress them. And when you do, the responses come with precision. Still, this sedan is at its best on the expressway. The steering knows exactly where straight ahead is, and the faster you go, the more it locks onto that heading. Read the rest of the entire comparo here http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/7359/70000-luxury-sedans.html As this comparo shows, the LS430 was weakest in skidpad grip shorn with all-season tires in 17" gab, compared to the German cars with upgraded suspension and 18" Summer tires (in sport gab). Not particularly apples-to-apples.... but like I said earlier, all you need is to put same 18" on the LS and with its Euro suspension pit the car against its comparable S, and let's see who wins that "performance" test. What remains a mystery is how easy it is for many people to simply believe the perception that the LS has poor performance cos its luxury-biased. Part of the beauty and allure of the LS is its deceptiveness... It does everything so well and effortless that makes you think it couldn't be that good.... Yes, its that good. The outgoing LS430 is pretty fast (5.9s with a 278HP/6A ain't bad), brakes are super sharp, has decent handling for a big sedan, and can be slightly sharpened with the Euro suspension. Maybe some don't think much of the LS in handling, but its a pretty good performer in its own right.
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Replying to: oac (Jun 16, 2006 11:17 pm) Lexus service interverals are more frequent than the Germans, but the dealer does all of the work including getting my car to and from the service department, so that doesn't really bother me. What's important is that even on year 5 and mile 150,000, my '96 LS400 kept on running day in and out without a single unscheduled repair visit, and my '01 has been more of the same. In contrast, I drive my Jags 1\10 of the amount of miles, and yet the '96 and '98 saw the dealer many a time. The '00 has been quite a bit more reliable than those older Jags, but it has still had its share of problems, including a supercharger failure that would've been hideously expensive to fix had it not been covered under warranty.
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Now if you're gonna stay on my team, you've gotta defend the team's right to earn a buck! How would Lexus' service dept. make money if they didn't require service visits? The cars won't break down, and you have to pay the service men well to keep good service men, so to cover your service overhead, and ensure your brands reputation for long-term durability, a six-month service interval is not only fair, it's expected. The other HELMs have turned to the use of longer intervals as a way to market against the superior quality of Lexus, and increase their perception of high quality. 20 years ago, the German's intervals weren't so long. What's changed in 20 years? Lexus, owners expectations (brought on by Lexus), and technology.. DrFill
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 7:07 pm) However, standards are so high these days, that "average" reliability today would have been "extraordinary" 20 years ago, IMO. I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough." I had no problem deciding on my 545 even though CR gave it the dreaded black mark for reliability. Given the performance, it was a risk worth taking. So far, close to the end of year one, no reliability issues at all. Come on folks, when was the last time you saw an Audi, BMW or MB stuck on the side of the road waiting for the AAA guy?
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Replying to: hpowders (Jun 17, 2006 4:25 am) CR had this car blacked-out from engine to trans to electricals to even the comfort level, which was interesting as the car was quite comfortable, ahead of all Germans in '01. What they don't tell you is that for every "eventual" prob they think the car will have, they'll mark it out. Check every single European car tbey test and it tells the story of bad electricals. Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation. And now to Audi, which CR gives mixed reviews. First they say that the A8 is flat out subpar, but turn back one page and the A6 4.2(which has the same running gear as the A8) is flawless. How's about that? But interestingly enough, they save some of the heat on my '06 W-12, which is quite interesting as the Phaeton W-12 scored horridly so, again the same running gear. Personally, I wouldn't believe one ioda that came out of that mag. And you're right, exactly how many of the German cars you see on the side of the road? Not many, if any. It's just yet another smear campaign in the pursuit of "perfection".......
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Replying to: lexusguy (Jun 17, 2006 1:10 am) LG - that's true of 95% of the buyers of the LS, S, 7 and A8 as well. The only thing most people will take note of are 0-60 times and HP.
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Replying to: blkhemi (Jun 17, 2006 5:30 am) I mean Audi, BMW and MB should be going out of business if you believe CR and its ilk. Hey folks, people are not that stupid. There appears to be a serious disconnect between reliability statistics and the real world. You can only go so far with this stale, tiring Lexus reliability argument. |
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Replying to: ljflx (Jun 17, 2006 6:20 am) Most of us are not about to take these vehicles to ridiculous limits on our way to work (except hpowders, when challenged on the freeway)  . The merits of performance, whether or not we ever personally reach or care about their actual limits, are legitimate measurements, however, and when making claims of superiority, they end up being tossed into the arena, I suppose. It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough". And the claims of superior handling by the Mercedes camp that go beyond "real life" requirements, as the performance of the Lexus in real life has typically been "good enough". This argument, it seems never ends, and the same results occur each time. That is, until the vehicles themselves change enough to give us very different feedback. Of course, with the new S-Class and the upcoming new S, the playing field is in a state of change. I personally can't wait to read the head to head comparos of the new LS against the new S-Class. This forum will be lit up like Christmas. Great days lie ahead for all of us. These recent "service interval" remarks may have some merit, as we haven't really tossed that around a bunch. I suppose the costs of those services could be significant if they are major services, as opposed to oil/filter changes. One other thing that I believe has come out of all of this is the much deserved attention to Audi. And it's about time, IMO. TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 17, 2006 8:40 am) I only lost 2 of them because my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me. Let 'em think they beat a 545. My gift to Interstate 75. 
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