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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: pat (Jun 16, 2006 3:20 pm) I'll do my best to answer. Here's what you just posted: I just genuinely don't understand how/why you folks repeatedly need to go after each other trying to make each other change perspectives - for years and years, now. The idea of trying to change each other's minds isn't the entire goal, but for those posters that are open-minded enough, over the years, opinions will change. Some never will, but that's OK, too. Also, there are folks that basically only READ the posts, and they get to see the back and forth debate, which illuminates BOTH sides of the coin. It is a HEALTHY exchange, typically, and only when it gets deeply insulting is it not. Also, the landscape is constantly changing. This recent discussion about Audi is a terrific example. In the last few years, look at what is happening to Audi. Just in the last months, Mercedes now has a new S-Class. This is BIG, since it represents the single best-selling HELM in the WORLD. And just look at Lexus. They are poised for another leap as they are about to unleash an entire new LS. Very significant indeed. Worthy of passionate discussion. The debate will go on and on, and the real world is changing. To debate it all is half the fun. To have a "tea and crackers" discussion about the heavyweight cars is just not realistic. Too much passion here for that, I'm afraid. My recommendation, if I may? Unless the topic strays WAY off for much TOO long about the wrong things (I know it always will a little), just let it go. Unless it gets NASTY, also just let it go. I have seen it self-correct itself most of the time. Most all of these posters are great guys with good intentions. I hope I haven't gone too far here. And I know you have the best intentions at heart here, and I do believe you'll KNOW when it is time to step in. ONE more thing . . . I think it would be cool for you to express YOUR ideas about cars more often. I already know you like the Quattroporte.  Warmly and Respectfully, TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 3:44 pm) I do.  I told you, I've gone back to living in the walls now. I was just saying some things I keep thinking, that's all - but I meant what I said in my subsequent post - have whatever conversation you need to have.
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Replying to: pat (Jun 16, 2006 3:53 pm) Let me take it one step further. Instead of "living in the walls" and occasionally emerging as referee or police, please jump in more often with some of your opinions about the CARS, which are just as valid as anyone elses here. Against the rules? TagMan |
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Get in there and throw some sand! Don't get me started!  You know you want to tell Hemi "I'd get an Audi, when they build 'em in Tahara, Japan!" You can do it! Stop sending me e-mails, and get it off your chest. I got your back! DrFill
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Replying to: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:34 pm) When you read the car mags, they generally use criteria such as subjective comfort and "feel", but they also use objective measureable things such as 0-60 acceleration, 60-0 braking, slalom results, fuel efficiency, db noise levels, and other measureable vital statistics. With regards to many of the measureable vital statistics, the Mercedes shines. With regards to the reliability, it is a statistic that favors the Lexus, but realize that reliability can occur at ANY price tier, and frequently does so at the economy tier. Performance, on the other hand, more typically improves at the higher price tiers, and is therefore a reflection of "invested dollars" into the design and production of a car. Performance has value. So, again, what makes one "better"? The measureable data of performance and reliability are certain factors, and then the subjective factors as the "feel" or comfort of the car. The features of the vehicle are certainly part of the equation. For the most part, what huge and significant differences do you see between the "features" of the S and the LS that you would claim is so much "better" for the LS? The history and heritage seems to be a new hot topic, but nonetheless, it does exist, and it is in Mercedes favor, of course, as are status and prestige, and the previously mentioned performance. So, it is interesting that when I compare all the factors here, it just looks obvious to me that the S-Class one-ups the LS, which is also a great car, BTW. But, somehow when a Lexus fan looks at the same data, the LS looks better. Same old conclusion, isn't it? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 5:14 pm) If only you or any of the Germancarfans can explain this I'd gladly listen... And of course, point out to me how these performance is measured objectively, that'd be nice as well.... Trust me, I do have an open mind to learn "new" things, or re-learn old things as well..
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 16, 2006 5:05 pm) I say this to you as you're the reigning king flip-floppin on this forum. Over the days, you said once, Audi isn't a HELM, secondly, a semi-HELM, and third, a full-out HELM. Which is it Doc? Can't slice your pie three ways. ...You know you want to tell Hemi "I'd get an Audi, when they build'em in Tahara, Japan!" And this was supposed to imply what? Because it's German, it's not better than Japanese, which couldn't be furthest from the truth? Or the fact that if Audi does build the cars there, it will eat at even more of Lexus' turf? Whatever. The truth of the matter is this. Most people that care about how a car is ranked are some of the same ones who are overly self-conscious of themselves, having to be oh so perfect each time. Is this why most Lexicans believe that Lexus has sold them perfection? And to add, some of those people also are so ever intrigued about what the next person thinks of the ride much more than they care to think. Which is really sad as with me, for sure I will continue to buy luxury rides, but not on the opinion or thoughts of anyone else.... |
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Replying to: oac (Jun 16, 2006 6:02 pm) Fair enough, my friend. Performance is measured OBJECTIVELY by testing specific criteria and then using that data as a measure of performance and allowing comparisons between vehicles. So, those objective measureable performance items are typically 0-60 acceleration, 0-100 acceleration, 5-60 acceleration, 60-0 braking, 70-0 braking, top speed, standing quarter-mile, slalom, 300-foot diameter skidpad, and fuel economy. Collectively, this data tells us how a car handles. Does it corner well or accelerate poorly, or brake poorly and other performance and handling criteria. In a certain sense, it is the athletic condition of a car. Later this summer I will be taking a very serious look at the Lotus Elise. The objective and measureable performance data on that car are practically off the charts in comparison to most vehicles. It's the PRIMARY reason I want one. Anything else that close in performance would cost me an ADDITIONAL $200,000. Now that's amazing to me . . . an affordable race car. Why is it amazing? Because, as you asked about, it is generally true that major performance is found in higher-priced cars. The more notable extreme being Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Maser, etc. A manufacturer must invest design-work and materials into performance. That's also why there is a premium for performance variants such as the "M" badge for BMW or the "AMG" badge for Mercedes. What does it say if a base car has terrific performance? It says that the manufacturer has done its homework and designed it into the vehicle, and has spent money on at least some level of original equipment to make it perform well. If you are saying that performance measurements do not matter and that the performance of the Lexus LS is "good enough" than I would counter and say that the reliability data doesn't matter and that the reliability of the Mercedes is "good enough". The reason I throw that out is that it is not fair to discredit the achievements of a marque, only to boast about the achievements of another. It should be that credit is given where credit is due. And performance is generally not the Lexus strength. Reliability is. Both these attributes are OBJECTIVE differences, measured in FACTUAL data. Style, however, is SUBJECTIVE and although the Mercedes is generally credited with more style, it is not a FACT. It is only a more popular or common opinion. Comfort is subjective and involves opinions, although at extreme comparisons, it presents itself as obvious, such as the comparison between the comfort of a Cadillac and a Chevy Cobalt. Subjective, but pretty obvious. History and heritage are FACTUAL, but their relevance is SUBJECTIVE and emotional, as are prestige and status. They exist and can actually be measured in marketing studies, but they are emotional factors and should be treated as such. So, performance in a vehicle is typically a result of superior design and components. It is an indication that money has been spent to achieve it. It is ultimately MEASUREABLE and has VALUE and MERIT. It is an ACHIEVEMENT. And that's more than enough for now. The first-place A's are playing the LA Dodgers . . . good West-Coast game for guys like us.  TagMan
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