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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24698 messages, Last post on Nov 30, 2009 at 1:20 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: designman (Jun 16, 2006 5:59 am) We can wax nostalgic all we want, but the performance qualities of German cars live in the present. Write your check and get it now. Lexus heritage? Manufacturing, reliability, hybrid, price… all good things but nothing to excite the pure driver. The Autobahn and Nurburgring are alive and well… German car heritage is alive and well… a vitality that is very alluring to the people who buy these cars. I liked the way you wrote that so much I thought I'd copy/paste it again. "alive" . . . "vitality" . . . ah yes, good words. TagMan
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As someone who has driven Lexi over 100,000 mi-----all models I own MB's. Lexi are fine cars but also have their problem. A run of recalled trannies, sludge engines etc. No mfg is perfect. Recently made an over 700 mi 1 day trip in my late model E Class with Dynamic Seats. No comparison in the seats or driving ease in mountain conditions. Yes the LS seats are soft but No support. MB seats are harder but the real test is how YOU feel after 12 hours in the saddle. Also more accurate stearing and braking in the MB. Maintenance-------every 5'000 mi with Lexi. Every 13'000 mi with MB. Take your choice on styling. I did. Both are very good. IMHO in also comes down to-------do really want to drive or do you want to ride?
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Replying to: merc1 (Jun 15, 2006 8:53 pm) 1) Lexus isn't half the innovator the Mercedes is and this nonsense about MB's electronics never working is total nonsense. Maybe you'd like to list all the innovations MB has brought forward since 1989 ? And stack them up against Lexus' in the same period... Let's see who wins... Pls include well-integrated into the list... No one has ever insinuated that MB electronics NEVER works... Just that they seem poorly integrated in some models... Do you recall your post commenting on how many electronic features MB are removing from their newer cars just to reduce the electronic gremlins afflicting them ? And that was only circa 2005, or thereabouts... If you don't recall, I can find it for you.... its right here on this HELM board. 2) Because they're cheaper. Read the previous posts and see what a LS430 sells for on average. If MB wins in all those area shouldnt they sell more because of a higher price? Is that what you're asking? That doesn't make any sense. The higher up in price the thinner the market is. Obviously you are wrong here. For starters, the affluent class has EXPANDED globally in recent years. Many more people can now afford to own/lease luxury cars, and you see the evidence all around you, and in luxury sedan sales growth. Secondly, a car like MB with so much more attributes than its competitors should be selling in droves, despite its higher price (heritage, class, features, performance, etc). Besides, its not like most S-class buyers pay cash for a $90K product. They mostly lease. And the difference in lease rates b/w a 65K LS430 and a $90K S500 can be a matter of a few hundred bucks (money factor, down payment, rates and incentives). I don't suppose that if I can pay $900/mth on an "inferior" LS430, I will be easily scared to pay $1200/mth for a "superior" S500. Would most buyers in this category not afford another $300 a month or so for the MB afterall most are earning in the 6-figure+ range ? Real-world pricing/leasing knocks your argument down, Merc1. Finally, MB is priced higher BCOS ............. its cost structure is higher, not bcos the car is better. I am sure you know that already... So why knock Lexus for making a product that competes at the S-class level but costs thousands LESS to produce and sell ???? Ahhhh !!!
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Replying to: merc1 (Jun 15, 2006 8:34 pm) Let's ask this again: What exactly do you guys constantly harp on as "performance" ? is this about suspension setup, steering and/or road feedback, speed, or what ?? You also add "handling"... Is the MB better at handling than an LS ? And sayz who ? Is the MB a better performance car than the LS ? Sayz who. The last comparo of record was the MT Dec 2003 report for MY2004 releases. The LS430 won that comparo, while the S430 came dead last... or close to last. And pls note that the S didn't come last despite its better performance against the LS.... I guess its easy to always throw the "performance" and "handling" shpeel out there as things German cars are always better than Japanese cars... It's simply become an acceptable fact to be announced everytime whether its actually true or not. I have yet to read of an LS that tipped over taking a corner way too fast bcos its handling was terrible. Does the LS430's 278HP not best the S430's 275HP ? Always.... Put a Z-rated shoe on the LS with the Euro suspension, and pit it against an S with dynamic suspension and the crap on it, and let's see which car outshines the other. I am sure none here has done this test, so pls, don't harp on performance and handling and drive like the MB is a Ferrari. If mainstream MBs are that, why the need for an AMG setup ? Many buyers don't give a "flying leap" about all this dependability/reliablity superiority that Lexus defenders constantly harp about it, if they MB/BMW/Audi wouldn't be able to sell cars, and they all do it for more money on top of that... Hmmmm ! The likes of JDP, CR, etc are mere nuisance in the industry then, eh ? If buyers and auto execs don't care about what these companies provide, why do they even exist ??? They must not serve any need in the business, right? I'll let you answer that one....
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Replying to: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:34 pm) What the German car fans are saying is there a certain exhilarating experience (performance, handling) that the German cars give them. They don't find that in a vehicle such as a Lexus. There's nothing wrong with that. What the Lexus fans are saying is that they prefer the comfort and reliability of the Toyota brand. They don't find those things in the German cars. There's nothing wrong with that either. It's a very good thing that all of these vehicles are available for everyone to choose the one that pleases the most. It doesn't really matter why someone has a particular set of preferences - it's just the way it is and of course we're all entitled to our own priorities. I think we should discuss the merits of all the vehicles we include in this category until the cows come home (or longer), but beating each other over the head trying to change each other's mind is not only totally fruitless, it's also very tired, old and unproductive ... 
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Oac, I'm not just addressing that to you, I'm addressing it to all the usual suspects. 
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Replying to: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:34 pm) TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 3:10 pm) I just genuinely don't understand how/why you folks repeatedly need to go after each other trying to make each other change perspectives - for years and years, now. It ain't a-gonna happen.  But go for it. I'll go back to living in the walls. 
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Replying to: pat (Jun 16, 2006 3:20 pm) I'll do my best to answer. Here's what you just posted: I just genuinely don't understand how/why you folks repeatedly need to go after each other trying to make each other change perspectives - for years and years, now. The idea of trying to change each other's minds isn't the entire goal, but for those posters that are open-minded enough, over the years, opinions will change. Some never will, but that's OK, too. Also, there are folks that basically only READ the posts, and they get to see the back and forth debate, which illuminates BOTH sides of the coin. It is a HEALTHY exchange, typically, and only when it gets deeply insulting is it not. Also, the landscape is constantly changing. This recent discussion about Audi is a terrific example. In the last few years, look at what is happening to Audi. Just in the last months, Mercedes now has a new S-Class. This is BIG, since it represents the single best-selling HELM in the WORLD. And just look at Lexus. They are poised for another leap as they are about to unleash an entire new LS. Very significant indeed. Worthy of passionate discussion. The debate will go on and on, and the real world is changing. To debate it all is half the fun. To have a "tea and crackers" discussion about the heavyweight cars is just not realistic. Too much passion here for that, I'm afraid. My recommendation, if I may? Unless the topic strays WAY off for much TOO long about the wrong things (I know it always will a little), just let it go. Unless it gets NASTY, also just let it go. I have seen it self-correct itself most of the time. Most all of these posters are great guys with good intentions. I hope I haven't gone too far here. And I know you have the best intentions at heart here, and I do believe you'll KNOW when it is time to step in. ONE more thing . . . I think it would be cool for you to express YOUR ideas about cars more often. I already know you like the Quattroporte. Warmly and Respectfully, TagMan
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