High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

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#16449 of 24700 Re: For me the heritage argument is a last resort [ljflx] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:37 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 8:14 pm) It's a weak POV and the ultimate fall back point (should I say desperation point) - IMO - because it is totally exclusionary. So of course by using it you can exclude someone new if you want to - anytime for the next 30-100 years (that's a lifetime in my book) and in any industry. But by doing so it means you'll never consider something from a new manufacturer or service provider. I could never be that narrow minded. Good point, but I don't think any of the Germancar defenders here are using heritage as a last resort, besides it couldn't be any more depserate than the constant reliability speech which implies (incorrectly) that everything else is on the side of the road constantly. Cars are not computers, phones or other such devices either. There is a certain emotional attachment to a car that an enthusiast has compared to those who only buy from the CR "recommended" list. For a lot of people there are way more things to consider. No one here defending Lexus can accuse anyone else of being narrow minded. Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage. No not really, it is the lack of a diesel in their premium cars that has held them back and that lack of heritage. Of course once they build a car in Europe and provide a diesel they're sales will do much better, but to that crowd you think doesn't care about heritage (which they do) they still won't buy. This will always be a factor, but how much of one is the question. Europeans caring more about where it is made vs who makes it is overstated with the 100X comment. The European auto industry was build on heritage and that still counts. Toyota has all the money in the world, yet if the execution is off, it won't matter where they build it. M
#16450 of 24700 Re: Ok, who needs the NBA/NHL Finlas! [designman] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:10 am)
Replying to: designman (Jun 15, 2006 5:26 pm) Tiger just doesn't seem motivated. Not like Phil. Never saw Tiger hit a putt like he did on #2: 2 feet short from about 12 feet. I guess 6 gazillion dollars will do that to you after a while. Oh well, if he remains disinterested in golf and Jack's pursuit, he can always slum over here on the 2 Buick Rainier threads.
#16451 of 24700 Re: Just clearing up some obvious misconceptions/misquotes as we go along. by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:32 am)
Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 5:16 pm) "I like Audi. But they are not on Lexus' level in the US." I do believe that is about to change big-time (in terms of sales). They are starting to infiltrate the airwaves. As consumer demand increases, which it will, they will use some of that capital to build more dealerships and soon pretty much everywhere you see BMW, Lexus and MB showrooms, an Audi will be nearby. I am excited when I hear the name "Audi" and I never was before. Will definitely drive a 6, 8 and a Q7 in my exhausting and (to other posters) nauseating search for my next vehicle, which usually begins the day after the new one is in the garage. The list of potential test-drives at this moment also includes the Porsche Cayman S. I plan on driving the new LS to see if its handling has improved. No BMW's on my list as yet.
#16452 of 24700 Re: Inspector Parrot [reality2] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:49 am)
Replying to: reality2 (Jun 15, 2006 5:51 pm) Sorry for the pasting." You didn't have to. Merc 1 provided the link already to this article in post # 16384.
#16453 of 24700 Audi Q7 by syswei Jun 16, 2006 (5:20 am)
I am going to consider it along with the new MDX and maybe the GX for purchase around Dec. Anyone have any thoughts as to whether reliability might prove more like VW, or more like Porsche? Excuse my ignorance but I don't really understand the corporate/manufacturing/design relationships between the 3 companies when it comes to the Tourareg/Cayenne/Q7. Replies to this message: hpowders (Jun 16, 2006 5:33 am)
#16454 of 24700 Re: Audi Q7 [syswei] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (5:33 am)
Replying to: syswei (Jun 16, 2006 5:20 am) I may be moving out of the hurricane belt in 2 years. The Q7 looks like it will be a major help in the move. It's enormous! Because if that, It must be considered my current front-runner at this time.
#16455 of 24700 Ah-h, those days of old by designman Jun 16, 2006 (5:59 am)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 8:14 pm) Ljflx… there is something very important that you are not taking into consideration about heritage. Germany’s automotive heritage is not just a thing of the past, it is being written as we speak. Re-read that article about the reluctance to impose speed limits on Germany’s Wild West highways. It is because of this one factor that German cars are built the way they are—for performance. And it is this reason why they are in such demand. We can wax nostalgic all we want, but the performance qualities of German cars live in the present. Write your check and get it now. Lexus heritage? Manufacturing, reliability, hybrid, price… all good things but nothing to excite the pure driver. The Autobahn and Nurburgring are alive and well… German car heritage is alive and well… a vitality that is very alluring to the people who buy these cars. Replies to this message: tagman (Jun 16, 2006 9:23 am) designman (Jun 18, 2006 7:02 am)
#16456 of 24700 Lexus VS Europeans by 2001gs430 Jun 16, 2006 (7:02 am)
The Lexus VS Europeans argument on this HELM thread is heating up again, so I am throwing in my two cents as well: IMO, to be a first tier HELM, the car company must go through three stages: 1- It must have a full history of building (perceived or otherwise) exceptional products that are generally accepted by the consumers. The products must include full line of vehicles from entry level to top end. Being accepted by the general public helps to make the company profitable i.e. bread and butter. Benz and BMW have certainly got this under their belt; Lexus has done it very well. Audi has been kind of hit and miss in NA. Jaguar has basically done nothing on the entry level. 2- With the firm footing built in step 1, the company can then enhance/grow its image by building/offering more extravagant/expensive products. I believe it is very important that anyone spending his/her own money on HELM would like to feel that the car company is standing solidly behind its offering. Initially, the loyal fans trading up support these. Then as the words get out, you get the converts i.e. customers leaving the other HELMs because of the styling, performance, technology and reliability etc... I believe Audi has not totally completed this step in NA since it is not drawing people away from the other HELMs. Again, Benz is already here, and actually it must work hard to keep its customer; BMW is kind of blurring its HE offerings by focusing more on its low and mid level products, nothing wrong with this since these are already pricey/HE. Lexus is now truly deep into this step with its new upcoming LS and other various potential models such as LFX, LFA and LFC. It is also in the process of improving the image of the entire product line with more technologies, performance and styling while maintaining the top rate reliability. 3- Once became first tier HELM, the company must constantly be innovative with technologies. It must keep the entire product line fresh and competitive. Relying solely on past performance to sell new vehicles is the recipe for disaster and may end up becoming second/third tier HELM (By the way, my definition of a less than first tier HELM is a HE vehicle that is nice to have but I would not pay for it with hard earned $). For those that are knocking Lexus, just keep watching the unfolding story. Lexus fans should just ignore these comments and enjoy the ride. I am happy that Lexus is not Europeans like; after all, we live and drive in NA (except for those biz trips accross the pond).
#16457 of 24700 Re: Ah-h, those days of old [designman] by tagman Jun 16, 2006 (9:23 am)
Replying to: designman (Jun 16, 2006 5:59 am) Germany’s automotive heritage is not just a thing of the past, it is being written as we speak. Re-read that article about the reluctance to impose speed limits on Germany’s Wild West highways. It is because of this one factor that German cars are built the way they are—for performance. And it is this reason why they are in such demand. We can wax nostalgic all we want, but the performance qualities of German cars live in the present. Write your check and get it now. Lexus heritage? Manufacturing, reliability, hybrid, price… all good things but nothing to excite the pure driver. The Autobahn and Nurburgring are alive and well… German car heritage is alive and well… a vitality that is very alluring to the people who buy these cars. I liked the way you wrote that so much I thought I'd copy/paste it again. "alive" . . . "vitality" . . . ah yes, good words. TagMan Replies to this message: designman (Jun 18, 2006 7:02 am)
#16458 of 24700 Lexus vs MB by greasykid1 Jun 16, 2006 (9:56 am)
As someone who has driven Lexi over 100,000 mi-----all models I own MB's. Lexi are fine cars but also have their problem. A run of recalled trannies, sludge engines etc. No mfg is perfect. Recently made an over 700 mi 1 day trip in my late model E Class with Dynamic Seats. No comparison in the seats or driving ease in mountain conditions. Yes the LS seats are soft but No support. MB seats are harder but the real test is how YOU feel after 12 hours in the saddle. Also more accurate stearing and braking in the MB. Maintenance-------every 5'000 mi with Lexi. Every 13'000 mi with MB. Take your choice on styling. I did. Both are very good. IMHO in also comes down to-------do really want to drive or do you want to ride? Replies to this message: stevekilburn (Jun 16, 2006 9:01 pm)