High End Luxury Cars

24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

Messages Page 1646 of 2471: 1; ...; 1643; 1644; 1645; 1646; 1647; 1648; 1649; ...; 2471; Prev; Next; Last

#16444 of 24700 Re: I'll put my foot farther [tagman] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:39 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:02 am) Wow! You really think that the typical Lexus HELM buyer is no more sophisiticated than the typical Buick buyer? Because that's largely what you have described. That is pretty much it. Really. You never hear anything about how the car drives,looks or anything "car-like". It is always surveys, price and this talk of luxury, which means not feeling anything and in the case of the LS430 the flattest seats possible. The ES and SC follow the same isolationist formula. They've been called "Buick-like" by more than one tester over the years. M
#16445 of 24700 Re: Potpourri... Tagman, question for you... [oac] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:53 pm)
Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) Which MB is this ??? Have you even sat in an LS recently ? Go sit in the new IS250 or 350, and check out the quality of the material in the lowest Lexus vehicle, then multiply that by a factor of 10 to get to an LS level quality. Please.... MB seats are hard, and not supple enough, IMO, which gives the nod to the LS. This is exactly why Lexus and particulary the LS has the reputation it has. The seats in the current LS430 are the flattest, most non-supportive seats going. They're made for a person that doesn't care one whit about actually driving the car. This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next Lexus isn't half the innovator the Mercedes is and this nonsense about MB's electronics never working is total nonsense. You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next Says what? Here is where the problem is in Lexusland. Unless some survey or stat can be googles right fast it doesn't exist. Mercedes (and Volvo) are the only ones that actually recover some of their cars after an accident to see how they can make them better. Mercedes' are safer in real-world crashes, a quick scan of the net will show you this. Mercedes' have some unbelievable accidents and yet the glass doesn't even break and the passenger cell is intact, doors still able to open etc. Lexus isn't an unsafe car by any means, but to say that MB holds no advantage here is just plain wrong. Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style* (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS...* Style = Mercedes. Safety = Mercedes. Technology = Mercedes. Reliability = Lexus. Ergonomics = Lexus. Luxury = Mercedes. LS430 is more of a traditional luxury car than a European one. And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy... Because they're cheaper. Read the previous posts and see what a LS430 sells for on average. If MB wins in all those area shouldnt they sell more because of a higher price? Is that what you're asking? That doesn't make any sense. The higher up in price the thinner the market is. M Replies to this message: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:09 pm) merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 10:07 pm)
#16446 of 24700 Re: A very interesting and timely article! [lexusguy] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:59 pm)
Replying to: lexusguy (Jun 15, 2006 1:14 pm) Ok, there are some MAJOR problems with that sentence. I'll give the author BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes. Audi and Range Rover, maybe. But Volvo?? Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind thinks Volvo is a "premium" brand, above Jaguar and Rolls Royce!? I agree, I didn't really understand what he was trying to say there. I guess that was strictly from a European point of view which would put all of those over Lexus, Infinti and Cadillac, but not Rolls or Jaguar. That I didn't get either. M
#16447 of 24700 Re: I promise [dhamilton] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:04 pm)
Replying to: dhamilton (Jun 15, 2006 2:06 pm) I'm not trying to sound superior. My point is to point out the fundamental difference in mind set/priorities between the German/Japanese customer. I think Hpowers said it best when he pointed it out that Cyclone4 didn't even mention performance. If it helps, I do think that Lexus is more sophisticated a car than Buick but, FWIW I never mentioned Buick, That was the good Mr.Tagman. Again FWIW for me reliablility would comes as a lower priority than performance. Something that Lexus does well. I can live with some glitches to have a car drive a certain way that I feel appropriate. This is what many have been saying all along. All you have to do is read the postings on various Germancar boards vs. Lexus and you'll see a clear difference, especially when talking about the LS/SC/ES. Now the GS and IS are somewhat different, especially the IS. Perfomance never, ever comes up and when it does and the Germancar outperforms the Lexus, you'll get the it doesn't matter response because this is America and you can only drive 55/65/75 mph anyway. M
#16448 of 24700 Re: Ok, who needs the NBA/NHL Finlas! [drfill] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:08 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) Funny, but Lexusguy doesn't fit in with those you've listed, he isn't nearly as pro-everything-Lexus as the rest are. He is a LS defender, but not much else from Lexus, at least that is the way it seems going by his post. Plus he owns a Jaguar and likes Maseratis. No other Lexican would go near a Jaguar or Maserati they'd likely gasp upon the first shift of the transmission in the Maser and the Jaguar's styling is too much. M
#16449 of 24700 Re: For me the heritage argument is a last resort [ljflx] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:37 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 8:14 pm) It's a weak POV and the ultimate fall back point (should I say desperation point) - IMO - because it is totally exclusionary. So of course by using it you can exclude someone new if you want to - anytime for the next 30-100 years (that's a lifetime in my book) and in any industry. But by doing so it means you'll never consider something from a new manufacturer or service provider. I could never be that narrow minded. Good point, but I don't think any of the Germancar defenders here are using heritage as a last resort, besides it couldn't be any more depserate than the constant reliability speech which implies (incorrectly) that everything else is on the side of the road constantly. Cars are not computers, phones or other such devices either. There is a certain emotional attachment to a car that an enthusiast has compared to those who only buy from the CR "recommended" list. For a lot of people there are way more things to consider. No one here defending Lexus can accuse anyone else of being narrow minded. Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage. No not really, it is the lack of a diesel in their premium cars that has held them back and that lack of heritage. Of course once they build a car in Europe and provide a diesel they're sales will do much better, but to that crowd you think doesn't care about heritage (which they do) they still won't buy. This will always be a factor, but how much of one is the question. Europeans caring more about where it is made vs who makes it is overstated with the 100X comment. The European auto industry was build on heritage and that still counts. Toyota has all the money in the world, yet if the execution is off, it won't matter where they build it. M
#16450 of 24700 Re: Ok, who needs the NBA/NHL Finlas! [designman] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:10 am)
Replying to: designman (Jun 15, 2006 5:26 pm) Tiger just doesn't seem motivated. Not like Phil. Never saw Tiger hit a putt like he did on #2: 2 feet short from about 12 feet. I guess 6 gazillion dollars will do that to you after a while. Oh well, if he remains disinterested in golf and Jack's pursuit, he can always slum over here on the 2 Buick Rainier threads.
#16451 of 24700 Re: Just clearing up some obvious misconceptions/misquotes as we go along. by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:32 am)
Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 5:16 pm) "I like Audi. But they are not on Lexus' level in the US." I do believe that is about to change big-time (in terms of sales). They are starting to infiltrate the airwaves. As consumer demand increases, which it will, they will use some of that capital to build more dealerships and soon pretty much everywhere you see BMW, Lexus and MB showrooms, an Audi will be nearby. I am excited when I hear the name "Audi" and I never was before. Will definitely drive a 6, 8 and a Q7 in my exhausting and (to other posters) nauseating search for my next vehicle, which usually begins the day after the new one is in the garage. The list of potential test-drives at this moment also includes the Porsche Cayman S. I plan on driving the new LS to see if its handling has improved. No BMW's on my list as yet.
#16452 of 24700 Re: Inspector Parrot [reality2] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:49 am)
Replying to: reality2 (Jun 15, 2006 5:51 pm) Sorry for the pasting." You didn't have to. Merc 1 provided the link already to this article in post # 16384.
#16453 of 24700 Audi Q7 by syswei Jun 16, 2006 (5:20 am)
I am going to consider it along with the new MDX and maybe the GX for purchase around Dec. Anyone have any thoughts as to whether reliability might prove more like VW, or more like Porsche? Excuse my ignorance but I don't really understand the corporate/manufacturing/design relationships between the 3 companies when it comes to the Tourareg/Cayenne/Q7. Replies to this message: hpowders (Jun 16, 2006 5:33 am)