High End Luxury Cars

24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan

Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Outline

Messages Page 1645 of 2470: 1; ...; 1642; 1643; 1644; 1645; 1646; 1647; 1648; ...; 2470; Prev; Next; Last

#16441 of 24697 Re: Aston Martin and heritage in Spades [stevekilburn] by lexusguy Jun 15, 2006 (8:33 pm)
Replying to: stevekilburn (Jun 15, 2006 1:49 pm) Aston has one victory in 1959 at Le Mans. Thats all! Most of aston legend is just baseless propaganda and fraud, just like most other british brands. Ok, you totally missed the point. I didn't say Aston Martin was the winningest car company ever. My point was that Aston and Maserati have been racing for a very long time, just like MB and Porsche. They both have legendary cars, just like MB and Porsche. The point was, how many race wins does Volvo have? How many legendary Volvos are there? Why is Volvo a "premium" brand, while Aston Martin and Maserati are "second-rate".
#16442 of 24697 Re: Potpourri... Tagman, question for you... [cyclone4] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:34 pm)
Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 8:26 am) The question is, in comparing the MB-S series, the BMW high end (whatever it's called, 700 series I think), and the LS, what has been a better car the past several years, taking everything into consideration (luxury, build quality, dependability, etc., etc.)? I think that the unequivocal answer to this question is the LS. You will notice that I did not even bring up the fact that the LS costs about $10-20 thousand less. That makes it even more of a winner. Now, what about the future? Is this going to change? I very much doubt it. With the gorgeous LS460 coming out and more importantly the LS600HL, I don't see how things are going to change much. The LS will still be the better vehicle, period. Isn't this the most important factor? Better when you stack the criteria in favor of the LS. No where in there does performance, handling, styling or anything else that actually relates to it being a car as opposed to an appliance even come up. Secondly this about the LS being more luxurious doesn't hold water. The car is no more "luxurious" than a S-Class or A8. Softer leather? Big deal, it will look like crap when the 2nd onwer gets his hands on it. Many buyers don't give a "flying leap" about all this dependability/reliablity superiority that Lexus defenders constantly harp about it, if they MB/BMW/Audi wouldn't be able to sell cars, and they all do it for more money on top of that. On paper the LS looks to be the end-all vehicle to some, yet right here on Edmunds you'll find a few Lexus owners have left and some buyers that found it to be a totally insipid vehicle. A luxury car of this ilk has to do more than win in surveys and being Mr. Practical, that is something Lexus doesn't seem to grasp, at least not yet. The new LS is anything but gorgeous, of course IMO. M Replies to this message: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:34 pm) pat (Jun 16, 2006 2:53 pm) tagman (Jun 16, 2006 3:10 pm) pat (Jun 16, 2006 3:20 pm) and 3 more... tagman (Jun 16, 2006 5:14 pm) oac (Jun 16, 2006 6:02 pm) and 43 more... merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 10:28 pm)
#16443 of 24697 Re: Potpourri... Tagman, question for you... [tagman] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:36 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 9:22 am) Excellent post, my thoughts exactly. It is so easy to declare a winner when you pick and choose the categories in favor of..... M
#16444 of 24697 Re: I'll put my foot farther [tagman] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:39 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:02 am) Wow! You really think that the typical Lexus HELM buyer is no more sophisiticated than the typical Buick buyer? Because that's largely what you have described. That is pretty much it. Really. You never hear anything about how the car drives,looks or anything "car-like". It is always surveys, price and this talk of luxury, which means not feeling anything and in the case of the LS430 the flattest seats possible. The ES and SC follow the same isolationist formula. They've been called "Buick-like" by more than one tester over the years. M
#16445 of 24697 Re: Potpourri... Tagman, question for you... [oac] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:53 pm)
Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) Which MB is this ??? Have you even sat in an LS recently ? Go sit in the new IS250 or 350, and check out the quality of the material in the lowest Lexus vehicle, then multiply that by a factor of 10 to get to an LS level quality. Please.... MB seats are hard, and not supple enough, IMO, which gives the nod to the LS. This is exactly why Lexus and particulary the LS has the reputation it has. The seats in the current LS430 are the flattest, most non-supportive seats going. They're made for a person that doesn't care one whit about actually driving the car. This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next Lexus isn't half the innovator the Mercedes is and this nonsense about MB's electronics never working is total nonsense. You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next Says what? Here is where the problem is in Lexusland. Unless some survey or stat can be googles right fast it doesn't exist. Mercedes (and Volvo) are the only ones that actually recover some of their cars after an accident to see how they can make them better. Mercedes' are safer in real-world crashes, a quick scan of the net will show you this. Mercedes' have some unbelievable accidents and yet the glass doesn't even break and the passenger cell is intact, doors still able to open etc. Lexus isn't an unsafe car by any means, but to say that MB holds no advantage here is just plain wrong. Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style* (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS...* Style = Mercedes. Safety = Mercedes. Technology = Mercedes. Reliability = Lexus. Ergonomics = Lexus. Luxury = Mercedes. LS430 is more of a traditional luxury car than a European one. And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy... Because they're cheaper. Read the previous posts and see what a LS430 sells for on average. If MB wins in all those area shouldnt they sell more because of a higher price? Is that what you're asking? That doesn't make any sense. The higher up in price the thinner the market is. M Replies to this message: oac (Jun 16, 2006 2:09 pm) merc1 (Jun 18, 2006 10:07 pm)
#16446 of 24697 Re: A very interesting and timely article! [lexusguy] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (8:59 pm)
Replying to: lexusguy (Jun 15, 2006 1:14 pm) Ok, there are some MAJOR problems with that sentence. I'll give the author BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes. Audi and Range Rover, maybe. But Volvo?? Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind thinks Volvo is a "premium" brand, above Jaguar and Rolls Royce!? I agree, I didn't really understand what he was trying to say there. I guess that was strictly from a European point of view which would put all of those over Lexus, Infinti and Cadillac, but not Rolls or Jaguar. That I didn't get either. M
#16447 of 24697 Re: I promise [dhamilton] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:04 pm)
Replying to: dhamilton (Jun 15, 2006 2:06 pm) I'm not trying to sound superior. My point is to point out the fundamental difference in mind set/priorities between the German/Japanese customer. I think Hpowers said it best when he pointed it out that Cyclone4 didn't even mention performance. If it helps, I do think that Lexus is more sophisticated a car than Buick but, FWIW I never mentioned Buick, That was the good Mr.Tagman. Again FWIW for me reliablility would comes as a lower priority than performance. Something that Lexus does well. I can live with some glitches to have a car drive a certain way that I feel appropriate. This is what many have been saying all along. All you have to do is read the postings on various Germancar boards vs. Lexus and you'll see a clear difference, especially when talking about the LS/SC/ES. Now the GS and IS are somewhat different, especially the IS. Perfomance never, ever comes up and when it does and the Germancar outperforms the Lexus, you'll get the it doesn't matter response because this is America and you can only drive 55/65/75 mph anyway. M
#16448 of 24697 Re: Ok, who needs the NBA/NHL Finlas! [drfill] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:08 pm)
Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) Funny, but Lexusguy doesn't fit in with those you've listed, he isn't nearly as pro-everything-Lexus as the rest are. He is a LS defender, but not much else from Lexus, at least that is the way it seems going by his post. Plus he owns a Jaguar and likes Maseratis. No other Lexican would go near a Jaguar or Maserati they'd likely gasp upon the first shift of the transmission in the Maser and the Jaguar's styling is too much. M
#16449 of 24697 Re: For me the heritage argument is a last resort [ljflx] by merc1 Jun 15, 2006 (9:37 pm)
Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 8:14 pm) It's a weak POV and the ultimate fall back point (should I say desperation point) - IMO - because it is totally exclusionary. So of course by using it you can exclude someone new if you want to - anytime for the next 30-100 years (that's a lifetime in my book) and in any industry. But by doing so it means you'll never consider something from a new manufacturer or service provider. I could never be that narrow minded. Good point, but I don't think any of the Germancar defenders here are using heritage as a last resort, besides it couldn't be any more depserate than the constant reliability speech which implies (incorrectly) that everything else is on the side of the road constantly. Cars are not computers, phones or other such devices either. There is a certain emotional attachment to a car that an enthusiast has compared to those who only buy from the CR "recommended" list. For a lot of people there are way more things to consider. No one here defending Lexus can accuse anyone else of being narrow minded. Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage. No not really, it is the lack of a diesel in their premium cars that has held them back and that lack of heritage. Of course once they build a car in Europe and provide a diesel they're sales will do much better, but to that crowd you think doesn't care about heritage (which they do) they still won't buy. This will always be a factor, but how much of one is the question. Europeans caring more about where it is made vs who makes it is overstated with the 100X comment. The European auto industry was build on heritage and that still counts. Toyota has all the money in the world, yet if the execution is off, it won't matter where they build it. M
#16450 of 24697 Re: Ok, who needs the NBA/NHL Finlas! [designman] by hpowders Jun 16, 2006 (3:10 am)
Replying to: designman (Jun 15, 2006 5:26 pm) Tiger just doesn't seem motivated. Not like Phil. Never saw Tiger hit a putt like he did on #2: 2 feet short from about 12 feet. I guess 6 gazillion dollars will do that to you after a while. Oh well, if he remains disinterested in golf and Jack's pursuit, he can always slum over here on the 2 Buick Rainier threads.