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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24685 messages, Last post on Nov 02, 2009 at 4:40 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 5:16 pm) Please allow the honorable TagMan to respectfully refresh the good doctor's memory. In post 16213 I requested you to say that "Audi is a HELM". In post 16214 you replied "Audi can be a HELM for YOU. Not a HELM for me." Very true . . . Audi is indeed a HELM for me and blkhemi and others, but you clearly said it . . . that FOR YOU, in YOUR opinion, according to YOU, DrFill, from YOUR perspective Audi is not a HELM. Doc, that's OK if you don't think it is. We just won't agree. But you are most welcome to change your mind, my friend, or even maybe you could put a spin on this whole thing and admit you didn't use the best choice of words, and that you actually meant to say it IS a HELM. That would be fine with me. So . . . here's your chance . . . Tell us that "Audi IS a HELM. Maybe a second-tier HELM, in your opinion, but that it IS a HELM. Can you go with that? C'mon, Doc, I'm tryin' to work with ya here.  TagMan
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) YES!!! 
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 6:47 pm) They're learning. I do believe they will be making some significant gains in the US market pretty soon. I have to agree with Merc. They have the best looking vehicles across the line both inside and out of any of the companies we discuss around here. Wonderful designs. Fabulous interiors. They won't be kept down much longer. I will for the first time add an Audi to my list when I go car hunting again. Perhaps the Q7-one of the best-looking SUV's I've ever seen. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 6:47 pm) Doc, you've won. This whole experiment has proven that you can get a good arguement here. For all intents and purposes, the test worked. As I've noted before, the HELM thing is over. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, who cares? The fact of the matter is that all the cars that are in question have posted some strong gains in both sales and product, even Lexus with the wonderful IS and upcoming LS. Yes I said it for the record, Lexus is a HELM(albeit, how are they better than Audi? One car can't strike a flame against Audi's lineup). Even without heritage, the company has a winning if dull recipe for success, with the LS being the best premium car in it's class in sales. But to exclude Audi from this is like saying the brand never existed, particularly when the brand has beat it's own sales forecast by some 200k units and counting, and this on the heels of it's A6/A8 cars, not lower end cars like Lexus generates most of it's global sales. So can we please put this HELM/non-HELM debate to rest because she hasn't had any rest in almost a week? And poor Pat can only intervene so much. You don't think Audi is a HELM, great, fine. Then stick by it as the rest of the world knows what's really going on. |
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It's a weak POV and the ultimate fall back point (should I say desperation point) - IMO - because it is totally exclusionary. So of course by using it you can exclude someone new if you want to - anytime for the next 30-100 years (that's a lifetime in my book) and in any industry. But by doing so it means you'll never consider something from a new manufacturer or service provider. I could never be that narrow minded. The business world, particularly the technology sector is a proven graveyard for those that think heritage is so crucial. Old world Europeans puts up a grave resistannce for a while but sooner or later mainstream forward thinking Europeans overcome the heritage stupidity. Sorry but I can't follow a group of people that tried to deny Disneyland to their kids because they thought they were so smug and it was beneath them. I'll give you heritage has some merit but if you make it a decision maker you are simply shortchanging yourself. Most people aren't that narrowminded. Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage. |
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Replying to: stevekilburn (Jun 15, 2006 1:49 pm) Most of aston legend is just baseless propaganda and fraud, just like most other british brands. Ok, you totally missed the point. I didn't say Aston Martin was the winningest car company ever. My point was that Aston and Maserati have been racing for a very long time, just like MB and Porsche. They both have legendary cars, just like MB and Porsche. The point was, how many race wins does Volvo have? How many legendary Volvos are there? Why is Volvo a "premium" brand, while Aston Martin and Maserati are "second-rate". |
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Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 8:26 am) Better when you stack the criteria in favor of the LS. No where in there does performance, handling, styling or anything else that actually relates to it being a car as opposed to an appliance even come up. Secondly this about the LS being more luxurious doesn't hold water. The car is no more "luxurious" than a S-Class or A8. Softer leather? Big deal, it will look like crap when the 2nd onwer gets his hands on it. Many buyers don't give a "flying leap" about all this dependability/reliablity superiority that Lexus defenders constantly harp about it, if they MB/BMW/Audi wouldn't be able to sell cars, and they all do it for more money on top of that. On paper the LS looks to be the end-all vehicle to some, yet right here on Edmunds you'll find a few Lexus owners have left and some buyers that found it to be a totally insipid vehicle. A luxury car of this ilk has to do more than win in surveys and being Mr. Practical, that is something Lexus doesn't seem to grasp, at least not yet. The new LS is anything but gorgeous, of course IMO. M
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 9:22 am) M |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:02 am) That is pretty much it. Really. You never hear anything about how the car drives,looks or anything "car-like". It is always surveys, price and this talk of luxury, which means not feeling anything and in the case of the LS430 the flattest seats possible. The ES and SC follow the same isolationist formula. They've been called "Buick-like" by more than one tester over the years. M |
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Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) This is exactly why Lexus and particulary the LS has the reputation it has. The seats in the current LS430 are the flattest, most non-supportive seats going. They're made for a person that doesn't care one whit about actually driving the car. This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next Lexus isn't half the innovator the Mercedes is and this nonsense about MB's electronics never working is total nonsense. You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next Says what? Here is where the problem is in Lexusland. Unless some survey or stat can be googles right fast it doesn't exist. Mercedes (and Volvo) are the only ones that actually recover some of their cars after an accident to see how they can make them better. Mercedes' are safer in real-world crashes, a quick scan of the net will show you this. Mercedes' have some unbelievable accidents and yet the glass doesn't even break and the passenger cell is intact, doors still able to open etc. Lexus isn't an unsafe car by any means, but to say that MB holds no advantage here is just plain wrong. Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS... Style = Mercedes. Safety = Mercedes. Technology = Mercedes. Reliability = Lexus. Ergonomics = Lexus. Luxury = Mercedes. LS430 is more of a traditional luxury car than a European one. And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy... Because they're cheaper. Read the previous posts and see what a LS430 sells for on average. If MB wins in all those area shouldnt they sell more because of a higher price? Is that what you're asking? That doesn't make any sense. The higher up in price the thinner the market is. M
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