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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24697 messages, Last post on Nov 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: blkhemi (Jun 15, 2006 1:47 pm) http://duboholic.com/2006/05/2008_audi_a7.htm Try this site for the same pictures that appear in Automobile and CAR. "Audi Nothing to Prove' |
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Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 1:45 pm) Source: Detriot News. German upmarket hegemony, built on speed, innovation said unassailable In Europe But Lexus, other upstarts with quality, style, price might be dangerous combination by Neil Winton In a country like the U.S. where the speed limit is rarely as high as 80 mph, would you buy a Porsche Cayenne SUV rather than a Range Rover because the Porsche was the fastest SUV in the world? If a BMW Formula 1 car was victorious in the U.S. Grand Prix on a Sunday, would you buy a BMW 540 on Monday rather than a Lexus GS 450h? Would you decide against buying a Rolls Royce Phantom because it could "only" do 145 mph, and might be overtaken on a German motorway by a Mercedes Maybach? If your answer's to the above questions are "no", you might have some difficulty suppressing your derision if you read a new book called "Premium Power, The Secret Of Success Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche And Audi", by Phillip Rosengarten and Christopher Stuermer, published by Palgrave MacMillan. Messrs Rosengarten and Stuermer are both auto analysts from the Global Insight automotive forecasting company, based in Germany, and "Premium Power" sets out to show why German upmarket car manufacturers have been so hugely successful around the world, and particularly in North America. Rosengarten, in an interview, outlined the basic premise of the book, which contends that German upmarket manufacturers, instead of copying Japanese concepts of lean production leading to faultless cars at competitive prices, developed "premium" brands which were differentiated by innovation, often led by success on the race track. The "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and for the time being Range Rover and Volvo, are superior to mere luxury cars like Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce, because they continuously set new high standards. The luxury brands merely follow and imitate. "This helps to explain why successful brands in America like Lexus are not so successful in Europe, where customers demand heritage above all," Rosengarten said. German and Lexus upmarket success in America is undeniable, not to mention the dismal record of Lexus, so far, in Europe. According to Rosengarten, brands like Range Rover, which is owned by Ford and is part of its Premier Automotive Group (PAG), are in danger of losing premium status and becoming merely luxury if they let innovation slip. "Range Rover, now belonging to a volume group like Ford, would be in trouble if Ford failed to understand how important innovation is and might starve it of the necessary investment. Its air suspension was a benchmark and others have caught up. Now Range Rover has its All Terrain Response, which is something nobody else has." All Terrain Response harnesses computer power to control offroading with settings for conditions like mud, snow, rocks and sand, and almost automates the driving skills required. Rosengarten says that innovation is demonstrated by motor sport victories, with Porsche showing by various sports car race wins that it stands for speed. Audi rally victories showed how its Quattro four-wheel drive system beat front wheel or rear wheel drive. Both Mercedes and BMW have long competed in Formula 1 Grand Prix. Advertising and sponsorship link premium car makers with upmarket activities including concerts, sports like golf, sailing and skiing, and also communicate the brand's history. Innovation crucial: "A premium brand can only be successful in the long run if the brand is continuously setting standards in one of the dimensions which are important to its premium customers," he said. "But premium innovation doesn't mean necessarily high tech or electronic ideas, a simple solution with customer focus will do. For instance there is a new option on the Lamborghini Gallardo which lifts the the front suspension a couple of inches to avoid damaging the car as it rides over sleeping policeman (bumps in the road designed to slow urban traffic)." According to the book, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, and Ferrari are also "premium". Mere "luxury" brands in the U.S. include Acura, Cadillac, Hummer, Infiniti, Lexus, Lincoln and Maybach, while secondrate status in Europe goes to Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati, Mini, Morgan, Rolls Royce, Saab and TVR. "Performance is important too, it gives a power reserve and reassurance. At Bentley, the new Continental GT sets outstanding standards. With a top speed of 193 mph it puts the Aston Martin Vanquish (part of Ford's PAG), which is nearly €100,000 ($125,000) more expensive in its shadow. People who buy cars like these have achieved something top in their area whether it is football (soccer) or fashion or films, and they want their car to do the same thing," he said. This idea might seem preposterous to some, that a car which can exceed the speed limit by more than the speed limit itself, at least outside of Germany where often there is no speed limit at all, would be desirable. German speed limit would destroy premium advantage But Rosengarten is insistent. "A speed limit on German motorways would be the end of German premium brands, yes definitely, there's no doubt about that. It is all down to image. The fact that German cars can attain such high speeds forces them all to be very competitive; it brings your performance to a level which no outsider can compete with. The introduction of a speed limit on British roads (in 1965) is one of the reasons for the industry's demise because it didn't have the challenge of top competition any more," Rosengarten said. Rosengarten is dismissive of the threat from Lexus to upmarket European sales, even though its amazing success in America might be thought to pose a long term threat. "Pitiful" Lexus Calling Lexus' European sales of about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful", Rosengarten doesn't rate the Japanese threat very highly. "Without heritage, which means a glorious history and brand tradition, it will not be easy to establish a successful luxury brand in Europe, not to mention establish a premium brand. All the more so as Lexus has many American luxury-style elements with its design orientation geared towards other premium brands instead of creating its own unique elements, and it cannot showcase any important innovations," he said. Rosengarten does concede that Toyota, its Lexus subsidiary and Honda's lead in hybrid cars, powered by a combination of petrol and electric motors, might give them some street cred, but he points to an ominous statistic. "Globally, Lexus is selling less... continued next
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Replying to: reality2 (Jun 15, 2006 5:51 pm) "Globally, Lexus is selling less than half of Audi's volume, and less than those of BMW and Mercedes- Benz." Not everybody falls for the line that car buyers demand a race-bred heritage for their cars, or that the Germans are the only manufacturers capable of producing high quality vehicles with a sporty drive. The new little Lexus IS, which competes with the BMW 3 series, Audi A4 and Mercedes C-class, drives as well as its Europeancounterparts and looks just as classy. The new top-of-the-range Lexus LS limousine is surely equal to the Mercedes S class, BMW 7-series or Audi A8, while another Japanese luxury marque, Nissan's Infiniti, shortly to start selling in Europe, is no slouch when it comes to high class design. Cadillac will also be claiming bragging rights for its new cars which are also being seen in Europe in increasing numbers. Though pitiful at best. Chrysler's eye-catching 300C and various Jeep SUVs are also competing vigorously in Europe. No God given right Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff University Centre for Automotive Research isn't convinced that the Germans have all the answers. The likes of Lexus have also shown that high quality doesn't have to mean prices that make the eyes water. And outright performance might not be such a big seller where consumers are becoming more aware of the need to conserve previous fuel and resources. "There's no God given right that German hegemony at the top end of the car market will continue, and when you look at the success of Lexus in America, which has forced the Germans to engage in more realistic pricing strategy, Lexus has certainly opened the eyes of American buyers of German products to the level of prices they are asked to pay," said Rhys. "Their latest models appeal to the European eye and consumers and are not geared entirely to the American market, unlike Infiniti, which needs a more global shape. Lexus is a very, very competitive package, good handling and efficiency, the sort of car that can give BMW, Audi and Mercedes a good run for their money." Speed not everything "This book gives a very German view of the automobile. Customers aren't just interested in speed, but other things like style and quality. And with everybody becoming more aware and interested in global warming, the pursuit of speed is at variance with what might become a more acceptable attitude. High earners too like to demonstrate their social responsibility. Arguing that the Cayenne is faster than the Range Rover, is not the message required in the market place," said Rhys. High quality, value for money, and a great experience at the dealership are Japanese attributes that will work for them even in the upmarket sector, said Al Bedwell, auto analyst at JDPower's operation in England. "Having said that I think that German car buyers may be influenced by good motor sport results, but that's just a feeling. But with the right designs and dealer network, Lexus could be a lot more of a threat to German premium brands. Lack of a sporting heritage is only a minor handicap," said Bedwell. Bedwell estimates that Lexus will raise its sales in Europe to between 45,000 and 55,000 by 2010, while Infiniti, which launches in Russia later this year and will start a fullscale roll out across Europe in 2008, will hit 20,000 by the end of 2010. Honda's Acura has yet to announce any intention of selling its cars in Europe. Even the Greens agree Rosengarten said the German premium car makers have been so successful that last year Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche produced more cars than the mass car manufacturers in Germany Volkswagen, GM's Opel, and Ford. "I expect that to continue," he said, and underlines the need to make sure Germany's roads remain unrestricted by speed limits. "It is important to keep away from a speed limit in Germany. All politicians from the main parties agree with this, even the Greens realise its importance; after machine tooling, automobiles are the biggest employer in Germany," he said. Professor Rhys isn't convinced about this need for speed. "It would be rather worrying from a German point of view if this book reflects the attitude of the companies. But I don't think they're so enamoured with speed as this book is pushing forward. The German vehicle manufacturers are unlikely to fall into this trap provided by this book," he said. |
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) |
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I am trying to get a handle on HELM -- isn't price the key? As I read through some of the recent posts it appears that many of the cars discussed here have high five up into six figure MSRP's. I cannot tick them all off, from the top of my head, but aren't virtually all the cars that command that kind of MSRP's "high end?" And, those cars in the price range noted are all luxury cars no? As a frequent participant on the LPS forum and a former owner of an Audi A8, I also wonder as I am attempting to get up to speed, how much "performance" counts in this class of cars? I have not, for years, driven an A8, 7 Series or high S class -- and the last time I drove the big buck Lexus, although more recent, was also some time ago. The recent write ups of the Lexus hybrids do make them seem to be VERY powerful, but I still have not read comments about them that would suggest they place high value on performance. The $100K Lexus has to be HE and I would hope LM, but is it also a PS? The Germans, based on 4+ year old experience DO emphacize P. All the comments pertaining to Lexus are certainly strong and mostly persuasive -- but there does seem to be less "concern" for them with respect to performance. Does HELM place low, medium or high value on performance? To me, the Audi S8 and a possible RS8 define HELPS, but does that qualify for inclusion in HELM? With "lottery" money, an S8 would certainly ring my bell as an HE vehicle. What, if any, concensus is there regarding traits -- including and excluding "brand" cache -- to be considered as a member of the HELM club? Since I find the size of the LPS family perhaps more to my needs and tastes, I will most likely be an observer here, but I would appreciate some "clarity" regarding the traits that qualify a vehicle to play in this league. Thanks for the enlightenment. |
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 5:16 pm) Please allow the honorable TagMan to respectfully refresh the good doctor's memory. In post 16213 I requested you to say that "Audi is a HELM". In post 16214 you replied "Audi can be a HELM for YOU. Not a HELM for me." Very true . . . Audi is indeed a HELM for me and blkhemi and others, but you clearly said it . . . that FOR YOU, in YOUR opinion, according to YOU, DrFill, from YOUR perspective Audi is not a HELM. Doc, that's OK if you don't think it is. We just won't agree. But you are most welcome to change your mind, my friend, or even maybe you could put a spin on this whole thing and admit you didn't use the best choice of words, and that you actually meant to say it IS a HELM. That would be fine with me. So . . . here's your chance . . . Tell us that "Audi IS a HELM. Maybe a second-tier HELM, in your opinion, but that it IS a HELM. Can you go with that? C'mon, Doc, I'm tryin' to work with ya here.  TagMan
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) YES!!! 
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 6:47 pm) They're learning. I do believe they will be making some significant gains in the US market pretty soon. I have to agree with Merc. They have the best looking vehicles across the line both inside and out of any of the companies we discuss around here. Wonderful designs. Fabulous interiors. They won't be kept down much longer. I will for the first time add an Audi to my list when I go car hunting again. Perhaps the Q7-one of the best-looking SUV's I've ever seen. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 6:47 pm) Doc, you've won. This whole experiment has proven that you can get a good arguement here. For all intents and purposes, the test worked. As I've noted before, the HELM thing is over. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, who cares? The fact of the matter is that all the cars that are in question have posted some strong gains in both sales and product, even Lexus with the wonderful IS and upcoming LS. Yes I said it for the record, Lexus is a HELM(albeit, how are they better than Audi? One car can't strike a flame against Audi's lineup). Even without heritage, the company has a winning if dull recipe for success, with the LS being the best premium car in it's class in sales. But to exclude Audi from this is like saying the brand never existed, particularly when the brand has beat it's own sales forecast by some 200k units and counting, and this on the heels of it's A6/A8 cars, not lower end cars like Lexus generates most of it's global sales. So can we please put this HELM/non-HELM debate to rest because she hasn't had any rest in almost a week? And poor Pat can only intervene so much. You don't think Audi is a HELM, great, fine. Then stick by it as the rest of the world knows what's really going on. |
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It's a weak POV and the ultimate fall back point (should I say desperation point) - IMO - because it is totally exclusionary. So of course by using it you can exclude someone new if you want to - anytime for the next 30-100 years (that's a lifetime in my book) and in any industry. But by doing so it means you'll never consider something from a new manufacturer or service provider. I could never be that narrow minded. The business world, particularly the technology sector is a proven graveyard for those that think heritage is so crucial. Old world Europeans puts up a grave resistannce for a while but sooner or later mainstream forward thinking Europeans overcome the heritage stupidity. Sorry but I can't follow a group of people that tried to deny Disneyland to their kids because they thought they were so smug and it was beneath them. I'll give you heritage has some merit but if you make it a decision maker you are simply shortchanging yourself. Most people aren't that narrowminded. Does anyone really think heritage will exclude Lexus from success in Europe?? If so I've got some great pacific ocean property in Nevada to sell you. Lexus has made a tiny attempt in Europe with a car they engineered for America. The moment they make the car European and build it there they will sell it in droves. Making the product in Europe makes it a European product in their eyes and that is about 100X more important to Europeans than heritage. |
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