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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 11:55 am) I generally have a history of being fairly objective in my views of Mercedes and Lexus, and the other marques as well. But as I've said, it is not reasonable to have Lexus fans take massive amounts of credit for even the smallest things, and totally deny Mercedes the credit it deserves, and to further insult the Mercedes marque by trying to deny its heritage and history, and to ignore the value of its status and prestige, as though they no longer have any merit. They all do. There are MANY factors, not just the ones that Lexus is good at. The ones that Lexus is NOT historically good at matter too. So, it is ridiculaous to suddenly ban heritage or prestige, to infer that style is not that big a deal, or to dilute the standards for performance as though going quickly in a straight line is adequate. (THAT was why I used the Buick analogy, hope I didn't insult anyone). It seems reasonable that reliability is not EVERYTHING. Those other factors and performance do matter, IMO. I think you know what I am saying, here. TagMan
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Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) Lets go trough the list one more time. Interior ergonomics – MB is a clear winner. Some might not like it at the first glance but after spending time in the car, you will understand how much better it is then anything from Japan. In terms of technology - MB is an innovator, unfortunately it does reflected on reliability, but Like Tagman stated MB clear winner. Lexus simply uses proven technology and it work in their favor in terms of reliability, but not in terms of Technological enhancements. New LS might change that, but again hybrid technology was tasted on other Toyota models and not an innovation at this point. Even Acura, without having presence in the HELM sector, was by far more involved in breakthrough technology. Not having any new technology to break, does not make Lexus a winner. Safety – MB would win this category as well but both cars are safe enough for a tie. Performance- clearly go to MB. Prestige – MB. Styling – subjective, but I think most will agree that MB is a winner. Price – Lexus. However if you look at the value, depending on your preferences, S class can be the best value on the market. In one of the reviews I think in R&T it won heads up campro with Rolls-Royce Phantom. No one in the right state of mind will compare LS to Phantom, don’t you think? After all, $150K 911 Turbo considered, by many, the best value on the market. I bet you thought it was Hyundai SonataJ S class is not only the better car by a mile, it also a better value and it’s 30K more expensive. Oak, I know you will probably disagree. However if you do, can you provide some explanation for your logic. Tagman clearly stated as why MB superior to Lexus, you on the other hand did not. One more thought, I might be out of line here, but I think that new LS looks similar to previous S class, which is a good thing. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 2:21 pm) Mercedes nevertheless builds fine cars because it still does well in many other helm criteria besides reliability. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 1:55 pm) And did you say sports car from Audi? Then the magic genie has just granted your wish: R8 and new TT(coupe, Cab, and hopefully the Shooting Brake). With the R8, you'll be able to get anything from a 3.6L V-6/DSG to a 5.0L V10/stick or DSG and a 6.5L V-12/stick or DSG(thank Heavens they opted against the cruel Lambo E-gear) with over 600hp, probably a smidge less than the Murcielago, for obvious reasons. That V-12 will also make it's way into the next gen A8's by virtue of smaller displacement(6.2L), but still with over 600-hp and with the engine sitting completely behind the front axle line, for improved handling and by virtue of the more complex but more compact 9-Speed autobox and DSG's. |
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We've got a world-class, 5-on-5, HELM Finals, right here! And here are your starting lineups: Air Europe: Merc Hpowders Tagman Designman BlkHemi Vs. Team Lexus Ljflx DrFill Oac LexusGuy Stevehilburn Cyclone (6th Man award-winner!) DrFill |
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1. I like Audi. They make some very appealing, premium automobiles. But they are not on Lexus' level in the US. Not even really close. 1a. I don't remember saying Audi isn't a HELM. I DO remember saying they are not a 1st-tier HELM. Big difference. 2. Mercedes is the standard in HELM automobiles, and I have the utmost respect for their heritage, and current lineup. I do believe they are Lexus' only legitimate competition, since they both make luxury-first cars/trucks, and is incredibly formidable. I see Ali-Frazier. But Mercedes has learned to respect Toyota/Lexus' power over the past 17 years. And I believe they consider Lexus a 1st-tier HELM in the US, and one to watch elsewhere, as it is fairly obvious Lexus has not applied itself in Europe/Japan with the ferver they have here. Taking over America is no small task, and Lexus can take one continent at a time, as far as I'm concerned. 3. Making pretty cars with high prices is fine, but if you can't sell them, like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW can, what have you got? Heritage is great. I'd rather have sales, cash, happy customers, and respect. Anything else will come only in time. 4. The 1st-tier HELMs in the US are Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Lexus. DrFill |
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Replying to: drfill (Jun 15, 2006 4:55 pm) Hey, Mets are unconscious! Hpowders… Tiger is 7 off the pace… he doesn’t do well in Westchester. There was a story today in our local paper about his 155-foot yacht which is parked in Mamaroneck harbor. So much for those friggin’ Buick ads. There was also a cute story about the family who owns a house that is very close to the 15th green. They have three rescued dogs (Spaniels) who bark at the golfers and that Tiger was playing with them during practice rounds. I’m wondering if they will cause a commotion during the tournament. 
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Replying to: blkhemi (Jun 15, 2006 1:47 pm) http://duboholic.com/2006/05/2008_audi_a7.htm Try this site for the same pictures that appear in Automobile and CAR. "Audi Nothing to Prove' |
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Replying to: ljflx (Jun 15, 2006 1:45 pm) Source: Detriot News. German upmarket hegemony, built on speed, innovation said unassailable In Europe But Lexus, other upstarts with quality, style, price might be dangerous combination by Neil Winton In a country like the U.S. where the speed limit is rarely as high as 80 mph, would you buy a Porsche Cayenne SUV rather than a Range Rover because the Porsche was the fastest SUV in the world? If a BMW Formula 1 car was victorious in the U.S. Grand Prix on a Sunday, would you buy a BMW 540 on Monday rather than a Lexus GS 450h? Would you decide against buying a Rolls Royce Phantom because it could "only" do 145 mph, and might be overtaken on a German motorway by a Mercedes Maybach? If your answer's to the above questions are "no", you might have some difficulty suppressing your derision if you read a new book called "Premium Power, The Secret Of Success Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche And Audi", by Phillip Rosengarten and Christopher Stuermer, published by Palgrave MacMillan. Messrs Rosengarten and Stuermer are both auto analysts from the Global Insight automotive forecasting company, based in Germany, and "Premium Power" sets out to show why German upmarket car manufacturers have been so hugely successful around the world, and particularly in North America. Rosengarten, in an interview, outlined the basic premise of the book, which contends that German upmarket manufacturers, instead of copying Japanese concepts of lean production leading to faultless cars at competitive prices, developed "premium" brands which were differentiated by innovation, often led by success on the race track. The "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and for the time being Range Rover and Volvo, are superior to mere luxury cars like Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce, because they continuously set new high standards. The luxury brands merely follow and imitate. "This helps to explain why successful brands in America like Lexus are not so successful in Europe, where customers demand heritage above all," Rosengarten said. German and Lexus upmarket success in America is undeniable, not to mention the dismal record of Lexus, so far, in Europe. According to Rosengarten, brands like Range Rover, which is owned by Ford and is part of its Premier Automotive Group (PAG), are in danger of losing premium status and becoming merely luxury if they let innovation slip. "Range Rover, now belonging to a volume group like Ford, would be in trouble if Ford failed to understand how important innovation is and might starve it of the necessary investment. Its air suspension was a benchmark and others have caught up. Now Range Rover has its All Terrain Response, which is something nobody else has." All Terrain Response harnesses computer power to control offroading with settings for conditions like mud, snow, rocks and sand, and almost automates the driving skills required. Rosengarten says that innovation is demonstrated by motor sport victories, with Porsche showing by various sports car race wins that it stands for speed. Audi rally victories showed how its Quattro four-wheel drive system beat front wheel or rear wheel drive. Both Mercedes and BMW have long competed in Formula 1 Grand Prix. Advertising and sponsorship link premium car makers with upmarket activities including concerts, sports like golf, sailing and skiing, and also communicate the brand's history. Innovation crucial: "A premium brand can only be successful in the long run if the brand is continuously setting standards in one of the dimensions which are important to its premium customers," he said. "But premium innovation doesn't mean necessarily high tech or electronic ideas, a simple solution with customer focus will do. For instance there is a new option on the Lamborghini Gallardo which lifts the the front suspension a couple of inches to avoid damaging the car as it rides over sleeping policeman (bumps in the road designed to slow urban traffic)." According to the book, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, and Ferrari are also "premium". Mere "luxury" brands in the U.S. include Acura, Cadillac, Hummer, Infiniti, Lexus, Lincoln and Maybach, while secondrate status in Europe goes to Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati, Mini, Morgan, Rolls Royce, Saab and TVR. "Performance is important too, it gives a power reserve and reassurance. At Bentley, the new Continental GT sets outstanding standards. With a top speed of 193 mph it puts the Aston Martin Vanquish (part of Ford's PAG), which is nearly €100,000 ($125,000) more expensive in its shadow. People who buy cars like these have achieved something top in their area whether it is football (soccer) or fashion or films, and they want their car to do the same thing," he said. This idea might seem preposterous to some, that a car which can exceed the speed limit by more than the speed limit itself, at least outside of Germany where often there is no speed limit at all, would be desirable. German speed limit would destroy premium advantage But Rosengarten is insistent. "A speed limit on German motorways would be the end of German premium brands, yes definitely, there's no doubt about that. It is all down to image. The fact that German cars can attain such high speeds forces them all to be very competitive; it brings your performance to a level which no outsider can compete with. The introduction of a speed limit on British roads (in 1965) is one of the reasons for the industry's demise because it didn't have the challenge of top competition any more," Rosengarten said. Rosengarten is dismissive of the threat from Lexus to upmarket European sales, even though its amazing success in America might be thought to pose a long term threat. "Pitiful" Lexus Calling Lexus' European sales of about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful", Rosengarten doesn't rate the Japanese threat very highly. "Without heritage, which means a glorious history and brand tradition, it will not be easy to establish a successful luxury brand in Europe, not to mention establish a premium brand. All the more so as Lexus has many American luxury-style elements with its design orientation geared towards other premium brands instead of creating its own unique elements, and it cannot showcase any important innovations," he said. Rosengarten does concede that Toyota, its Lexus subsidiary and Honda's lead in hybrid cars, powered by a combination of petrol and electric motors, might give them some street cred, but he points to an ominous statistic. "Globally, Lexus is selling less... continued next
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Replying to: reality2 (Jun 15, 2006 5:51 pm) "Globally, Lexus is selling less than half of Audi's volume, and less than those of BMW and Mercedes- Benz." Not everybody falls for the line that car buyers demand a race-bred heritage for their cars, or that the Germans are the only manufacturers capable of producing high quality vehicles with a sporty drive. The new little Lexus IS, which competes with the BMW 3 series, Audi A4 and Mercedes C-class, drives as well as its Europeancounterparts and looks just as classy. The new top-of-the-range Lexus LS limousine is surely equal to the Mercedes S class, BMW 7-series or Audi A8, while another Japanese luxury marque, Nissan's Infiniti, shortly to start selling in Europe, is no slouch when it comes to high class design. Cadillac will also be claiming bragging rights for its new cars which are also being seen in Europe in increasing numbers. Though pitiful at best. Chrysler's eye-catching 300C and various Jeep SUVs are also competing vigorously in Europe. No God given right Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff University Centre for Automotive Research isn't convinced that the Germans have all the answers. The likes of Lexus have also shown that high quality doesn't have to mean prices that make the eyes water. And outright performance might not be such a big seller where consumers are becoming more aware of the need to conserve previous fuel and resources. "There's no God given right that German hegemony at the top end of the car market will continue, and when you look at the success of Lexus in America, which has forced the Germans to engage in more realistic pricing strategy, Lexus has certainly opened the eyes of American buyers of German products to the level of prices they are asked to pay," said Rhys. "Their latest models appeal to the European eye and consumers and are not geared entirely to the American market, unlike Infiniti, which needs a more global shape. Lexus is a very, very competitive package, good handling and efficiency, the sort of car that can give BMW, Audi and Mercedes a good run for their money." Speed not everything "This book gives a very German view of the automobile. Customers aren't just interested in speed, but other things like style and quality. And with everybody becoming more aware and interested in global warming, the pursuit of speed is at variance with what might become a more acceptable attitude. High earners too like to demonstrate their social responsibility. Arguing that the Cayenne is faster than the Range Rover, is not the message required in the market place," said Rhys. High quality, value for money, and a great experience at the dealership are Japanese attributes that will work for them even in the upmarket sector, said Al Bedwell, auto analyst at JDPower's operation in England. "Having said that I think that German car buyers may be influenced by good motor sport results, but that's just a feeling. But with the right designs and dealer network, Lexus could be a lot more of a threat to German premium brands. Lack of a sporting heritage is only a minor handicap," said Bedwell. Bedwell estimates that Lexus will raise its sales in Europe to between 45,000 and 55,000 by 2010, while Infiniti, which launches in Russia later this year and will start a fullscale roll out across Europe in 2008, will hit 20,000 by the end of 2010. Honda's Acura has yet to announce any intention of selling its cars in Europe. Even the Greens agree Rosengarten said the German premium car makers have been so successful that last year Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche produced more cars than the mass car manufacturers in Germany Volkswagen, GM's Opel, and Ford. "I expect that to continue," he said, and underlines the need to make sure Germany's roads remain unrestricted by speed limits. "It is important to keep away from a speed limit in Germany. All politicians from the main parties agree with this, even the Greens realise its importance; after machine tooling, automobiles are the biggest employer in Germany," he said. Professor Rhys isn't convinced about this need for speed. "It would be rather worrying from a German point of view if this book reflects the attitude of the companies. But I don't think they're so enamoured with speed as this book is pushing forward. The German vehicle manufacturers are unlikely to fall into this trap provided by this book," he said. |
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