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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24700 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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the characteristics of a successful HELM and performance is completely left out of the equation with an emphasis on "reliability", it's pretty obvious where this person is coming from. Unfortunately, that Lexus USA success translates into dismal failure in Europe, where the true success stories continue to be MB, BMW and Audi, in that order. Go back and read Merc's thoughtfully-provided link in post # 16384. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:41 am) Luxury, seating, and current technology are buyer-dependent/subjective. Is there really a gap between these two vehicles (tech-wise) in their current (new S) and soon-to-be (LS) iterations? If you add engineering innovation and history, yes, MB gets the nod. I agree that MB gets a category win in safety, but I don't consider any vehicle in the HELM class as a "slam-dunk" order of magnitude better than any other. Other categories would include cost (although that is often discounted by many) and prestige (one win apiece). Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the LS is the better car, but I don't believe it is so cut-and-dried. As I have no intention of ever owning either one (at this point in time--although I don't see that changing), I don't have much of a bias. |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:41 am) 
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:41 am) Which MB is this ??? Have you even sat in an LS recently ? Go sit in the new IS250 or 350, and check out the quality of the material in the lowest Lexus vehicle, then multiply that by a factor of 10 to get to an LS level quality. Please.... MB seats are hard, and not supple enough, IMO, which gives the nod to the LS. The interior ergonomics and seats are superior in the Mercedes. The S-Class Drive-Dynamic driver's seat is particularly better than the Lexus drivers seat. The winner - Mercedes. Interior ergonomics... Yikes ! No one would put the MB over the LS in ergonomics... No one. Next ! Technological enhancements - Certainly Lexus also has technology, but Mercedes has been a pioneer and leader in Pre-Safe, Collision impact capabilities, Distronic Plus Radar Cruise Control, Tel-Aid, Advanced Ergonomics, Night-View Assist, Electronic Stability Program, Superior braking systems, Parktronic, Dynamic Rear-View Monitor, Active Curve Illumination, Comand System, and the more typical Bluetooth, Voice Control, and Navigation technologies. The winner - Mercedes. This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next Safety - This is a slam dunk for Mercedes, but one small thing should be noted. Superior performance is generally an attribute of safety. Overall, no discussion necessary. The winner - Mercedes. You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next Overall, the S-Class is superior to the LS. Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS... And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy... Do you need a refresher course in MB v LS or what ??? |
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Not making a judgment on who is a more sophisticated customer. Merely pointing out what seems to be the difference between the Lexus vs Audi BMW Mercedes customer IMO. The Lexus fan will generally not make handling a factor, If so, they would not be considering Lexus to begin with IMO. I agree that styling and status are subjective so can't really put those in my argument. |
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Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) Regarding your #1 in sales thing in AMERICA only, don't forget that the Ford F-150 is AMERICA's favorite vehicle. S-Class is the Heavyweight Champion of the WORLD in sales for this category we are all discussing. All things considered, I'd have to say that the LS price is still a big reason to pick the LS, but the S-Class is so much more car, IMO. TagMan |
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:41 am) Luxury - To me this a toss up. Technological enhancements - Also a toss up. Safety - Not sure, but I'll give it to MB. Personally, I think they are about equal. Reliability - Lexus Style - MB Environmental concerns - I think Lexus is the winner here. Fuel economy - I did not mention this above, but Lexus is the winner here I believe. Thus, seeing it point by point, it is a close call, but I would give the nod to the LS. I don't see a clear cut winner in my opinion. It depends on which of the points are considered more important than others. Now if you throw in the price tag, there is no longer any question. The main reason I responded so strongly above is due to this stuff about history and heritage. I don't think that matters at all. It is a matter of "what have you done for me lately". I do believe that with the new generation of LS in a few months, Lexus will be a clear cut winner since the above points will go more in the favor of the LS (especially the LS600HL).
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Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) But I advise you not to raise this issue again with him on LS. When it comes to Lexus he is almost always irrational and uses most baseless and uninformed arguments. The wise among us know these people who keep parroting "heritage, heritage, heritage"... like a never ending puppet. I say china and India have a 5000 yr heritage. Does any one give a sh** when buying products from these countries. |
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Replying to: oac (Jun 15, 2006 11:32 am) You obviously made it more of a slam dunk for the LS as the winner than I did. You are obviously much more familiar with the idiosyncrasies and features than I am. Since I was not sure about the electronic problems on the MB, I did not bring that up with TagMan. Also, perhaps that goes along with the general title of reliability. "Thank you for your support"! |
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Replying to: merc1 (Jun 14, 2006 10:25 pm) Ok, there are some MAJOR problems with that sentence. I'll give the author BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes. Audi and Range Rover, maybe. But Volvo?? Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind thinks Volvo is a "premium" brand, above Jaguar and Rolls Royce!? They go on to imply that Volvo is above Aston Martin and Maserati as well. Aston Martin and Maserati have heritage in spades, both as manufacturers and from their racing programs. How many Le Mans wins does Volvo have? |
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