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Sedans High End Luxury Cars
24699 messages, Last post on Nov 30, 2009 at 6:41 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
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Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 8:26 am) And he lobs a soft, high pitch right over the plate... (There's opening a can of worms, and then there's opening a can of worms, throwing in some spaghetti, and giving it a good stir). |
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Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 8:26 am) While not the number one factor in the US, it is in fact one of the TOP priorities in Europe, and explains Lexus's horrible sales there. Further it is wrong to completely ignore this factor here at home in the states. To say "who gives a flying leap" is quite a disregard for "status" particularly, which does play a role in the sales process of upper-end luxury vehicles. Whether it should or should not is a different question, but like it or not. it does play a role. Status and prestige are factors that clearly assist the Mercedes more than the Lexus, and that is likely why you have attempted to disregard them. The question is, in comparing the MB-S series, the BMW high end (whatever it's called, 700 series I think), and the LS, what has been a better car the past several years, taking everything into consideration (luxury, build quality, dependability, etc., etc.)? I think that the unequivocal answer to this question is the LS. Of course, this is an ongoing debate on this forum and always will be. Firstly, you threw out the heritage, history, status and prestige factors that are clear winners for Mercedes Benz, and now you fail to mention STYLE, which has been largely deficient in the Lexus LS when compared to the Mercedes. This gap may close a bit more with the arrival of the new LS, but the new S-Class is still the better-looking and better-styled vehicle, IMO. Classier in all regards. For Lexus it still gets down to reliability statistics, and that's the only thing that Lexus truly has over the BMW and Mercedes, and it is likely that over some time, we will see that gap narrow somewhat, although I think it is safe to say that Lexus will most likely retain their leading position in that category. With further regards to the reliability statistic that is in Lexus's favor, realize that it is only one factor that luxury car buyers consider . . . and when it comes to all the others, such as style, prestige and status, heritage, and the importance of vehicle performance, Lexus is second-fiddle to Mercedes and BMW in every one of them. Sorry to pop your balloon, but that's just the way it has been so far, and the way it still is. TagMan
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in the door sooner and say that cyclone 4 would be in my mind a fairly good representation of the average car consumer, and Lexus buyer. No offense intended I promise, but those kind of people [forgive me while I step off of the generalizing cliff] tend to be less of a traditional car enthusiast. At least that has been my experience. My point is that the nuances of how a car drives ie steering feedback, transmission quickness, overall road feel, is of less importance to them than is a buttery soft seat, light steering, and a disconnected sort of road feel. Lexus seems to understand that the only thing the average American knows about performance is dinasour aged Nascar racing, and fast in a strait line performance. They are marketing geniuses. Lastly, I will take a bit of Mark's advice and say that it's a good idea to test drive all the cars in the above mentioned [and hotly debated] HELMS category to make a truly educated, and thorough decision.
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 9:22 am) I also do not care what the Europeans think. They are "brain-washed" in my opinion. Yes, yes, some will say that we here in the U.S. are "brain-washed" toward the LS. But again, the facts are that the LS is a better car for the reasons I stated on the above post. I am trying to use logic here. What difference does it make that the MB has been around for 100 years. So what? That in itself does not make it a better car. And I couldn't care less about status either. I keep coming back to which is a better car with all the factors combined. The factors that count to me include: reliability, luxury, comfort, technological enhancements, safety, environmental concerns, and style. Of these, the only one that the MB has had over the LS has been style. That will also narrow with the new LS. |
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World's most expensive lemon? Dealership says $1.7 million car won't run and maker Mercedes-Benz won't fix it. June 15, 2006: 9:58 AM EDT NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - The owner of a Los Angeles car dealership is suing Mercedes-Benz, its parent company DaimlerChrysler and other affiliates, alleging that a $1.7 million car purchased in 2004 wouldn't run for more than 10 blocks without problems. |
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Replying to: dhamilton (Jun 15, 2006 9:50 am) those kind of people [forgive me while I step off of the generalizing cliff] tend to be less of a traditional car enthusiast. At least that has been my experience. My point is that the nuances of how a car drives ie steering feedback, transmission quickness, overall road feel, is of less importance to them than is a buttery soft seat, light steering, and a disconnected sort of road feel. Lexus seems to understand that the only thing the average American knows about performance is dinasour aged Nascar racing, and fast in a strait line performance. Wow! You really think that the typical Lexus HELM buyer is no more sophisiticated than the typical Buick buyer? Because that's largely what you have described. I'm not so sure of that, but if so, that explains a lot. TagMan
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Replying to: tagman (Jun 15, 2006 10:02 am) |
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Replying to: cyclone4 (Jun 15, 2006 9:58 am) Mercedes has a history of die-hard dependable cars that has been compromised in recent years. Still, it's not like the cars are in the shop all the time. This reliability statistic has been WAY overblown, but it is true that Lexus gets this one. The winner - Lexus. Mercedes is clearly more luxurious. The LS is good, but the materials seem a little flimsier and cheaper somehow, and their application and the execution of them still falls short a bit in comparison to Mercedes. The winner - Mercedes. The interior ergonomics and seats are superior in the Mercedes. The S-Class Drive-Dynamic driver's seat is particularly better than the Lexus drivers seat. The winner - Mercedes. Technological enhancements - Certainly Lexus also has technology, but Mercedes has been a pioneer and leader in Pre-Safe, Collision impact capabilities, Distronic Plus Radar Cruise Control, Tel-Aid, Advanced Ergonomics, Night-View Assist, Electronic Stability Program, Superior braking systems, Parktronic, Dynamic Rear-View Monitor, Active Curve Illumination, Comand System, and the more typical Bluetooth, Voice Control, and Navigation technologies. The winner - Mercedes. Safety - This is a slam dunk for Mercedes, but one small thing should be noted. Superior performance is generally an attribute of safety. Overall, no discussion necessary. The winner - Mercedes. When it comes to the environment, it is true that Lexus will introduce its hybrids, but even that technology is not without its questions, such as battery disposal. The cleaner-burning Mercedes diesel engines that are forthcoming will also make an environmental contribution, given the measureable improvement in emissions, particularly overseas, but please don't tell me that the global environment is not of concern and that only the US environment is, because that's one area that we are all connected. The winner - unknown. The style question isn't one at all. You have already admitted that Mercedes styling is superior, and it is. The winner - Mercedes. Overall, the S-Class is superior to the LS. Add back into the equation the factors of heritage and status and prestige, and PERFORMANCE, and it is a slam dunk for the Mercedes S-Class. TagMan |
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honestly didn't mean that to sound offensive, but after all what does Lexus really offer over Buick besides better reliability, a softer seat, and better technology. But I can't really say better driving dynamics. I guess it seems like to me that is what Lexus is, a more modern version of Buick. I'm not making a judgment on sophistication, or lack thereof. Just my opinion on what are the priorities of the Lexus minded consumer vs the German one. And again, just MO It comes down to [me anyway] driving dynamics vs non driving dynamics. I used Nascar as an example, what does turning left and flooring it, then turning left and flooring it say about dynamics. Very little IMO, just as Lexus has very little in that regard. Again, Lexus does other things well which appeals to their customers,just not to me and the average German car fan.
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