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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1623 of 2473

#16217 of 24723 Re: Tiers... [merc1] by designman

Jun 12, 2006 (7:31 am)

Replying to: merc1 (Jun 10, 2006 3:55 pm)
BMW, intensely focused and since 2002 not afraid to make a decision or take a new and controversial path and much better run company than Mercedes is now, but not quite as well-run as Porsche.
 
Merc I think you are giving Porsche too much credit here. BMW is a well-oiled business machine whose growth has been deliberate with rock-steady profits over the long haul. From what I have read, they are a business model and the envy of marketers in and out of the automotive industry due to their steady market share and impeccable branding. Their timing and product diversification plan in the past 5 years has been spectacular.
 
Porsche on the other hand has had rough goings over the years and has only started to live in a comfort zone since the launch of the Boxster in 97. Cayenne was money from heaven, almost serendipitous and no stroke of genius. Their current reliability status is the icing on the cake but they have a history of FMY problems that are rectified in follow-up years. This has been a pattern with them. 997 and 987 are probably their first cars to have overcome that FMY syndrome so this is a feather in their cap and lives up to Porsche’s edict that excellence is expected (even though it has not always been manifest).
 
Porsche’s size makes them much more susceptible to market influences, their decision making is sometimes questionable as in the VW stock purchase and they have their eggs in few baskets when it is time to put them in more. I still see them as sort of a rogue company. There but for the grace of the SUV go I. It got them back into racing just recently. And the reason they left racing to begin with? They couldn’t afford it.
 
BMW seems more predictable and they nailed their platform diversification efforts. What happens with Porsche is anyone’s guess. The Carrera GT was not a resounding success and Panamera is somewhat of a question mark. They plan on making 20K. Want to take a stab at the price? Can they overprice it? Will they overprice it? Cayman has bolstered the 987 line but is not selling gangbusters. What more can be expected from a deuce coupe? The very fact that one SUV could be responsible for over 50% of their sales shows just how small and susceptible they really are and how making sports cars is not exactly the most secure way to make a living. I have to believe they could expand their product line more quickly in a similar manner to what BMW did but they choose not to due to a purist attitude which is ironic considering Cayenne.
 
They say the rising tide raises all ships. I think Porsche’s current success is a more a result of this than it is marketing competency. In consideration of the blinding luster of the badge, I just think they could be getting more out of it whereas BMW is the savvier of the two and milking it for all it is worth. The time is right for incredible Porsche growth and they don’t seem interested. Too 911-centric. The badge is a gold mine and they are not digging up the ore.
 
Fact is that both companies are currently riding a wave of success, but given BMW’s consistency through the years and the fact that they are currently the world’s largest maker of premium vehicles, I’d have to award them the business gold without question even though I thoroughly admire the artistic personality, autonomy and DNA of Porsche.

#16218 of 24723 Re: One more Ting! [hpowders] by pat

Jun 12, 2006 (7:32 am)

Replying to: hpowders (Jun 11, 2006 1:01 pm)
Hey ... nuthin' wrong with an apple for the teacher.

#16219 of 24723 Lexus GT 450/500 by designman

Jun 12, 2006 (7:33 am)

Oac… you reported 12000 RPM with this sled. That’s some serious twist speed. Previous reports said it would be “over 9000” RPM. Well, that’s WAY over 9K and creates a new league of production car if true. They also said it sounds like an F1 engine so maybe it is true although it boggles the mind how that will be sold for the street. One thing is for sure. Such a car doesn’t go against the SL, it goes against Ferrari. It’s a race car and I’ll believe that redline when it’s official. Sure does sound exciting though. I’d like to know why they are doing this. Because they can? They have no sport in the lineup backing it up.

#16220 of 24723 Re: Sources: Porsche, Hyundai make big gains in quality study [designman] by hpowders

Jun 12, 2006 (7:37 am)

Replying to: designman (Jun 12, 2006 7:30 am)
Thanks Designman for your comprehensive response.
 
If I do decide on a Cayman S, living in Florida, to obtain a significant price break, I have no problem making a deal up north and driving it back down.
But like I said, a final decision would have to be made about 2 years from now.
 
Very little traffic where I live.
Being retired, I avoid interstate rush hour situations.
I agree. I couldn't conceive of driving this kind of vehicle in persistent congestion.
 
It definitely has my attention though.
I'll check one out in about a year.
 
Thanks.

#16221 of 24723 Re: One more Ting! [pat] by hpowders

Jun 12, 2006 (7:45 am)

Replying to: pat (Jun 12, 2006 7:32 am)
!

#16223 of 24723 HELM - Definitions and Clarifications by oac

Jun 12, 2006 (9:24 am)

While the debate rages on Audi, Lexus, BMW and HELM, it is important that we clarify the premise to which these debates are being made. Lost here is if indeed everyone is clear about what it is to be a HELM player ? I'd like to take a stab at defining and clarifying our forum here.
 
HELM - High-End Luxury Marque. On the face of it, it could mean many things: cars, companies, exotics, etc. But the HELM we talk about here refers to the CAR, and that's why these cars are clearly listed at the top of this board. By definition, the CAR must be a high-end car, with luxury appointments and should be a marque car. Heritage is only one aspect, not the key factoid...
 
Now to a clarification: A HELM company can make many HELM cars, but only one HELM car is needed to qualify. Put another way, a car company only needs to make a car that meets these definitions, to become a HELM company.
 
Audi A8/A8L and A8 W12 are all HELM cars. Ditto Lexus' LS430, soon to be a whole series of LSs - 460/460L/600h/600hL. MB has the S550/S600/S63/S65 as HELM cars in this space, and BMW has the trio of 750i/750iL/760iL. All of these cars fit our HELM definition. Are these cars not high-end ? Yes. Are they not luxurious ? Yes they are. Are they not marque cars ? Yes they are, for each of the car companies.... Absolutely! That is what we are talking about here on this board.
 
As HELM car makers, MB, Audi and BMW are solid HELM companies by virtue of their HELM stable of cars, however Lexus makes it into the HELM club by virtue of the LS series. Without the LS, Lexus will just be known as the luxury arm of Toyota, much as Infiniti and Acura are today. And that's why these latter companies are NOT included in the HELM player space.
 
Finally, a word on Merc1's tier structures for HELM. Here I will agree with Doc that we should classify the ultra-high end exotic cars - Lambos, Ferraris, Bugattis, Aston Martins, Bentleys, and Maybach - into the class they truly belong - EXOTIC HELMs. These cars are niche products, sold only to the infinitesimal 0.0001% of the world buyers.... How can we lump these into the mainstream HELM cars which are somewhat affordable for the 99% of the mass population ?
 
Hope that these definitions and clarifications help.

#16224 of 24723 Re: Lexus GT 450/500 [designman] by oac

Jun 12, 2006 (9:37 am)

Replying to: designman (Jun 12, 2006 7:33 am)
Designman, the car mag had a pic of the gauge showing it to run all the way to 12,000-rpm. The car is F1-inspired, and Lexus is darn serious about going way above MB here. They want a true marque car they can hang their hat on. And what better way than to go to the level of the Ferraris.... Yes, you are right, the Lexus GT450 is aimed higher than the SL, maybe at the SLR/Ferrari class, but priced dirt cheap at $150K (give or take). Its got the HP to play there, and the street cred from Toyota/Lexus racing in F1 to back it up. Has a manumatic 6-MT 3-pedal shifter, as well as wheel-mounted paddles, I'm guessing. Its top speed is close to 200mph, and can reach 60mph in about 4s. What's not to challenge the big boys with here ?
 
It should arrive here next Fall.... Wanna check one out ?

#16225 of 24723 Re: Sources: Porsche, Hyundai make big gains in quality study [designman] by hpowders

Jun 12, 2006 (10:35 am)

Replying to: designman (Jun 12, 2006 7:30 am)
Just checked out Rennlist.
The Boxster owners discovered what I found with the BMW 5 seat.
You have to move it forward and then all the way down and then travel back for maximum headroom and legroom.
Interesting threads.
Thanks!

#16226 of 24723 Re: HELM - Definitions and Clarifications [oac] by tagman

Jun 12, 2006 (11:02 am)

Replying to: oac (Jun 12, 2006 9:24 am)
Audi A8/A8L and A8 W12 are all HELM cars. Ditto Lexus' LS430, soon to be a whole series of LSs - 460/460L/600h/600hL. MB has the S550/S600/S63/S65 as HELM cars in this space, and BMW has the trio of 750i/750iL/760iL. All of these cars fit our HELM definition. Are these cars not high-end ? Yes. Are they not luxurious ? Yes they are. Are they not marque cars ? Yes they are, for each of the car companies.... Absolutely! That is what we are talking about here on this board.
  
As HELM car makers, MB, Audi and BMW are solid HELM companies by virtue of their HELM stable of cars, however Lexus makes it into the HELM club by virtue of the LS series.
 
oac - good post, but let's not forget Jaguar, which easily meets your well-explained criteria.
 
Thanks,
 
TagMan

Messages Page 1623 of 2473

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