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High End Luxury Cars

24723 messages,  Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan



Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.

A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.

Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.

Messages Page 1567 of 2473

#15655 of 24723 Re: Merc [drfill] by merc1

May 20, 2006 (1:01 pm)

Replying to: drfill (May 19, 2006 5:43 pm)
You were right about C-Class sales. Ok! I missed that one. It sells much more than I thought.
 
Bingo! Finally!
 
But you are also guilty of lack of research, and saying without knowing!
 
Nope. Not.
 
You seem to like to pick on the GS, as I do the C-Class. For some reason you are quick to jump on BMW's bandwagon, while the E-Class gets passed over easily in comparisons, like it's bretheren, the C-Class (but that's discussion in another post).
 
Well if I do it is because this time last year we heard one boast after another as to how the new GS was going to be a true BMW fighter (I won't even say killer) from both Lexusfans and their head guy alike. It didn't happen and when it didn't happen in the comparos, all Germancarfans got was how the GS is selling, selling and selling. I merely pointed out that now since its sales are already dropping in its second year, which happens to still be its first model year of the new re-design, I asked what will be the excuse from Lexuscarfans now? You took up the argument for the usual suspects because they'd obviously been outdone because the initial promises of a BMW threat weren't kept and now the sales wasn't looking to good either especially with the upstart Infinti M gaining on the GS. That was my point Doc. The Infiniti in particular it was said here didn't have a chance at outselling the GS because people didn't want a sportier car over the Lexus.
 
You seemed to pick on the Lexus interior, and mentioned it is "Good in a straight line".
 
I remember saying something about its interior when I first saw one on the local dealer's lot, but never anything that harsh, and it having better steering than the E500 when I drove the GS430 at the Taste of Lexus last year, but I don't remember saying that it was merely good in a straightline.
 
Regarding the BMW 540i vs the Lexus GS, and I quote:
  
Save for it's compacted rear seat, the GS400's interior also received high marks, centered on the ergonaomically-friendly IP; and the backlit, sliver-blue-tinted instruments that automatically adjust to ambient light.
  
Added to these appealing features is a sticker price of $50,347, the lowest of the group, and more than $5k less than the winning BMW. Based on such numbers (lower price, better skidpad numbers, better braking, better top speed, better economy at 24MPG, slower in 60 and quarter by .10 seconds), one could certainly question the Gs' second place finish.
  
Suffice it to say that a one-point seperation on scores might be considered a tie. The GS is that good!
  
Car & Driver, Nov. 1998
  
Other significant facts:
  
GS earns C&D "10 Best" in 1999.
  
GS beats Mercedes & BMW in MT comparison in that year.
  
GS suffers another incredibly close second in R&T the next year.
  
Mercedes is beaten every time by Lexus, in performance, and price.
 
The problem with this Doc is that you're living in the past and you're doing the same switch of criteria as you did with the SC430. This data is as old as all getout and secondly Mercedes didn't market the E of that day as a BMW fighter nor did they promise a BMW fighter when the 2003 E appeared. Lexus did with the 2006 GS, that is why I use the BMW as a reference when talking about the GS. The 5-Series is the car that LEXUS said was the competitor, not the E-Class.
 
It really looks kinda desperate to me for you to have to go back to the previous car and dig up a bunch of comparos that it most cases it didn't even win! What is the point?
 
Lexus has stated that BMW was the target, not Mercedes in the middle segment.
 
Let's agree on this. If you need facts on Lexus success and history, get a hold of me. If I need Mercedes history and success stories, I'll call you, deal?
 
No dice to that because I didn't give a Lexus history lesson to begin with. I brought up the current GS' sales as my most important point and secondly as to how it has been no threat at all to BMW's 5-Series. All of that is true as can be Doc. Your listing of old comparos in which the Lexus only managed to beat the BMW once and came in 2nd all the other times only proves that the GS during its entire life has never a real threat to BMW! Let me try and pass off a "incredibly close second" placing of a Mercedes to a Lexus as something significant and watch how the circuits go off. A close second doesn't count Doc.
 
Besides you were the one that was flat out wrong about the C's sales, not once but twice! I wasn't wrong about the GS never having been much of anything for BMW to worry about in either comparos (old or current) and certainly not in sales (not even close there).
 
Infiniti has done what Lexus said they wanted to do in just the last 3-4 years with the G35 and now the M35/45, build a true BMW competitor, not a half-baked attempt smothered in typical Lexus detachment and luxury.
 
And pick one bandwagon and stay on it, ok? When your team loses say, we lost, but we'll get you next time! I haven't heard you schill for BMW. You just did it to attack Lexus, which is beneath you.
 
Oh I'm on the Germancar team, with MB being the marquee brand. I usually don't have to go to bat for BMW because they're hardcore fans are usually lurking, but I just couldn't resist in raking the Lexusfans over the coals about all the boasting done about the GS this time last year. I have no idea as to what you're talking about with "we'll get you next time". That is a GM apologist line, you know that. What was beneath you was to come and rag on the C-Class for no good reason and then to consistantly get the sales numbers wrong. I wasn't "wrong" about anything here Doc, the GS' record both past and current against the 5-Series in both sales and comparo speaks for itself. It all points out that BMW has nothing to worry about from Lexus' GS.
 
M
 

#15656 of 24723 Doc by merc1

May 20, 2006 (1:49 pm)

Edit: In further reading of the entire last page of posts it was one yours that said that about the GS. Whew, I didn't think I said anything like that having actually liked driving the GS430 last year!
 
M

#15657 of 24723 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [tagman] by lexusguy

May 20, 2006 (3:55 pm)

Replying to: tagman (May 20, 2006 10:57 am)
I've driven the car twice. What I like so much about it is that it combines more sportiness than a 750 with more luxury than an A8, especially on the Executive GT version, which has adjustable heated, cooled, and massage seats in front and back, fold-down picnic trays and privacy curtains in the back VDP style, and an Alcantara headliner.
 
Perhaps its biggest strength is its exclusivity. The 760, S600 and A8 W-12 are all very exclusive cars, but they look just like the much more common V8 powered versions. The Q is unique and uniquely Italian, with no hints of German or Japanese influence. The only problem with that is the electronics in the car can't come close to matching the abilities of a Lexus or Mercedes. If you can get past the mediocre NAV system though, its an otherwise phenominal car.
 
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_3.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_7.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_8.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5812/1009393_37.jpg

#15658 of 24723 Yeah, Merc. That was LG, not you. by drfill

May 20, 2006 (6:41 pm)

 
  I'll let your last post slide, since I made a mistake.
 
  We'll hook up down the line. My beef is with Tag and LG.
 
  Peace!
 
  Tag
 
  I don't see you contributing anything! Lebron can't hit every shot, ya no? Words can't bring me down, even my own!
 
  LG
 
  The A6 was just beaten by the GS in a C&D comparison last year, coming in 5th behind the E, GS, RL, and M. So I wouldn't pump those pom-poms too much for a 5th-rate ride! It's not even as good as a Lexus I don't really like!
 
  DrFill

#15659 of 24723 Re: Yeah, Merc. That was LG, not you. [drfill] by lexusguy

May 20, 2006 (8:36 pm)

Replying to: drfill (May 20, 2006 6:41 pm)
The A6 was just beaten by the GS in a C&D comparison last year, coming in 5th behind the E, GS, RL, and M. So I wouldn't pump those pom-poms too much for a 5th-rate ride! It's not even as good as a Lexus I don't really like!
 
Ok.. so were talking about the current gen A6 and GS now? I dont recall cheer leading for the current car. In fact, I've said on several occasions that I think the interior is a major step backwards from the last A6, which is IMO Audi's best work to date.
 
As for that C&D comparo, I think a lot of the placing order was just as strange as Edmunds picking the GS as "Japan's best sports sedan". Their priorities were all over the place. In some instances it seems they wanted value, in others performance, and in others simple and intuitive controls. The only car that actually gets all three correct is the Infiniti M, and I completely agree with its 1st place finish.
 
The problem with an all-inclusive comparison test such as C&D's is that each contender is not necessarily designed with identical goals in mind. For buyers looking mostly for luxury, I would rank the GS 1st and the E 2nd. For buyers looking for a blend of luxury and performance with AWD, I would rank the A6 1st, and the RL 2nd. For buyers looking for a true performance sedan, I would rank the M 1st, and the 5 2nd.

#15660 of 24723 Now that you have been corrected, by drfill

May 20, 2006 (9:38 pm)

 
   Apparently, C&D wants what every buyer of a $50k+ sedan wants. They only want it all! And if they can't get it, they will default to the most entertaining/powerful car in the class (M45 in this case).
 
   The public isn't as forgiving as C&D is of the RL, which they were highly impressed by.
 
   AWD is not a legitimate performance enhancer in California, where they do many of these comparos, or the South, or the Midwest. On a dry tarmac, the weight offsets the traction advantages, and it moves back in the standings.
 
   I LOVE the Evo (especially THE NEXT EVO X!), but not because it has AWD, because it has low weight, a good sized back seat, great power, and, apparently, it's AWD system makes it appreciably faster than you'd think it would be.
 
   A6 has underachieved in sales, and performance, from what I've seen. Maybe like the GS, the last one was better. I don't know.
 
   DrFill

#15661 of 24723 Re: Yeah, Merc. That was LG, not you. [drfill] by tagman

May 20, 2006 (11:28 pm)

Replying to: drfill (May 20, 2006 6:41 pm)
My beef is with Tag and LG.
 
"Aaaaaa . . . what's up, Doc?"
 
Review my posts. I've joked with you a little here and there, told you I was glad you were feeling better, and when you glitched a little on your posts, I suggested you take a vacation, but you and I haven't gotten into ANYTHING like some of those heated discussions you've had with others.
 
In fact, I've been so busy lately that I've been laying kinda low on the forum, so to quote the old BK commercial . . . "where's the beef"?
 
 
 
TagMan

#15662 of 24723 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [lexusguy] by tagman

May 20, 2006 (11:43 pm)

Replying to: lexusguy (May 20, 2006 3:55 pm)
I totally understand your admiration for this car. Since there is a local area dealership here, I still intend to get there and check this vehicle out. As I posted earlier, and blckislandguy confirmed, the tranny should be improved next year.
 
I am surprised that the NAV is sub par.
 
Regarding the Q . . . exquisite is the word that comes to my mind.
 
TagMan

#15663 of 24723 Re: Now that you have been corrected, [drfill] by lexusguy

May 21, 2006 (12:08 am)

Replying to: drfill (May 20, 2006 9:38 pm)
The public isn't as forgiving as C&D is of the RL, which they were highly impressed by.
 
Yeah, I dont really understand why C&D likes the RL so much. It's not particularly quick, or sporty, or luxurious, its too small, and the sticker is too high.
 
This also struck me as funny: It's an exceedingly well-integrated vehicle, and when you add legendary Acura quality and resale value, second place sounds like a perfectly reasonable outcome.
 
I dont think so, bub. First, Acura's "legendary quality" seems to be a thing of the past. The '04 TLs werent the greatest, and the '05 RLs were much worse than that. No better than any of the German cars. In fact, C&D's own long term tester was constantly in the shop (eight unscheduled service visits in less than 1 year!) with electrical problems.
 
Second, since sales are so poor and dealers are forced to give the new ones away, lightly used '05s are $35-37K. So much for resale value.
 
The Evo is pretty awesome, especially considering how much it costs. Unfortunately for Mitsubishi, the Lancer its based on, as well as every other Mitsubishi product, is lousy.

#15664 of 24723 Tag by drfill

May 21, 2006 (6:38 am)

It didn't sound like a joke, Tag. But ok! No hard feelings.
 
   LG
 
   If you check the Evo X forum, you'll see the Lancer and Evo are ready to become mainstream icons, if all goes as planned. The Lancer can be the next Mazda3!
 
   DrFill

Messages Page 1567 of 2473

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