Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#15647 of 24726 Re: Wow! [drfill]
May 19, 2006 (10:55 pm)
They may have disagreed in '98 or '99, but as I said before, once the A6 received actual horsepower, it was all over for GS as far as the mags were concerned. The '06 GS is the best one yet, but it still has the same fundamental problem that has been plauging the car since 1993. Lexus keeps over promising and under delivering with an akward car that has to find a small niche between the ES and LS.
In fairness to BMW, that picture was not the most flattering I could find, but it fit the size and angle requirements to fit with the others. Here is a much better one, along with a similar GS photo:
While the previous 5 was hardly my favorite car interior, in my opinion it definitely bests the extremely flat and boring GS interior (CR called it "antiseptic"), which could easily have come from Accord town.
#15648 of 24726 The Doc needs a vacation
May 20, 2006 (7:00 am)
You were right about C-Class sales. Ok! I missed that one. It sells much more than I thought.
My bad! It was you, wasn't it! I must still be very ill.
Doc, you are waving those Lexus pom-poms with irrational exuberance . . . even for the GS in areas it is not deserved. Also, you are mixing up the posters and posting major data errors. The good news is that you have good character and are man enough to admit it. I've got to respect that about you.
It's definately time for you to "get out of Dodge" and take that nice trip to Tahiti or Hawaii or somewhere you love, so that you can r-e-l-a-x and nourish your health back. You deserve it . . . even if you are a die-hard Lexican full of Lexuses!
#15649 of 24726 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [tagman]
May 20, 2006 (7:22 am)
Tagman, I read that in calender year '07 they will have this corrected. As one with a keen eye for value (e.g., your posts on used XJs) what do you think of a gently used '05 Maser traded in by a hedge fund manager's wife because she couldn't stand the tranny? Are we at 70K?
#15650 of 24726 Re: The Doc needs a vacation [tagman]
May 20, 2006 (7:25 am)
My eyes glaze over when I read the point-counterpoint between the Doc and Merc1. Its too much like the McLaughlin Report on television with (ex-Jesuit, Father) John McClaughlin's posturing.
May 20, 2006 (9:53 am)
Demand starting to really build now at these gas prices. I honestly think that anyone that buys a High HP low MPG car - luxury or otherwise - is going to get crushed in the used car market of the future. That big HP is going to cost a lot - upfront, at the pump and in lost resale value in the future.
#15652 of 24726 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [blckislandguy]
May 20, 2006 (9:57 am)
I appreciate your comment, but the Q is a car I am only recently paying more and more attention to. Perhaps delinquent on my part, but the truth nonetheless.
Are you considering one? If my failing memory serves me correctly, Lexusguy knows quite a bit about the Q.
#15653 of 24726 Re: hybrids [ljflx]
May 20, 2006 (10:09 am)
lj - when I first mentioned this, I got the flame-thrower treatment, as though I was out of my mind, but I agree with you. This is only the beginning, I'm afraid. The world energy and political situation and the changing energy technologies will cause a MAJOR shift in the years to come. I expect hybrids AND diesels to pull in much larger market share over the years to come . . . as well as new gas injection technologies and better cylinder management.
Right now, you can steal a large SUV. This is always the early warning sign.
You will be glad you have that LS600hL next year. You might even save it for evenings and weekends and commute in a higher MPG vehicle, which seems to be an increasing trend. I believe that we will see some high MPG attractive 2-seaters in the near future that should provide a nicer way to achieve that type of approach, rather than an econobox.
#15654 of 24726 Re: So I was right! [lexusguy]
May 20, 2006 (11:40 am)
Isn't it though. When I read that comparo in SCI I was like they must have made a mistake when printing! The problem with the whole thing is though Mercedes facelifted the C-Class for the 2005 model year, but the engines didn't come until the 2006 model year. Both the engine and interior updates were badly needed and should have been done at the same time. The C350 would have been much more talked about if it come out in 2005 instead of 2006 when the new IS and 3-Series caught all the press glory.
Still though, talk about giving an old man a new lease on life! That C350 likely isn't the desperate little piece that Doc claims it is! We know the C "Class" isn't in sales.
#15655 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
May 20, 2006 (12:01 pm)
You were right about C-Class sales. Ok! I missed that one. It sells much more than I thought.
But you are also guilty of lack of research, and saying without knowing!
You seem to like to pick on the GS, as I do the C-Class. For some reason you are quick to jump on BMW's bandwagon, while the E-Class gets passed over easily in comparisons, like it's bretheren, the C-Class (but that's discussion in another post).
Well if I do it is because this time last year we heard one boast after another as to how the new GS was going to be a true BMW fighter (I won't even say killer) from both Lexusfans and their head guy alike. It didn't happen and when it didn't happen in the comparos, all Germancarfans got was how the GS is selling, selling and selling. I merely pointed out that now since its sales are already dropping in its second year, which happens to still be its first model year of the new re-design, I asked what will be the excuse from Lexuscarfans now? You took up the argument for the usual suspects because they'd obviously been outdone because the initial promises of a BMW threat weren't kept and now the sales wasn't looking to good either especially with the upstart Infinti M gaining on the GS. That was my point Doc. The Infiniti in particular it was said here didn't have a chance at outselling the GS because people didn't want a sportier car over the Lexus.
You seemed to pick on the Lexus interior, and mentioned it is "Good in a straight line".
I remember saying something about its interior when I first saw one on the local dealer's lot, but never anything that harsh, and it having better steering than the E500 when I drove the GS430 at the Taste of Lexus last year, but I don't remember saying that it was merely good in a straightline.
Regarding the BMW 540i vs the Lexus GS, and I quote:
Save for it's compacted rear seat, the GS400's interior also received high marks, centered on the ergonaomically-friendly IP; and the backlit, sliver-blue-tinted instruments that automatically adjust to ambient light.
Added to these appealing features is a sticker price of $50,347, the lowest of the group, and more than $5k less than the winning BMW. Based on such numbers (lower price, better skidpad numbers, better braking, better top speed, better economy at 24MPG, slower in 60 and quarter by .10 seconds), one could certainly question the Gs' second place finish.
Suffice it to say that a one-point seperation on scores might be considered a tie. The GS is that good!
Car & Driver, Nov. 1998
Other significant facts:
GS earns C&D "10 Best" in 1999.
GS beats Mercedes & BMW in MT comparison in that year.
GS suffers another incredibly close second in R&T the next year.
Mercedes is beaten every time by Lexus, in performance, and price.
The problem with this Doc is that you're living in the past and you're doing the same switch of criteria as you did with the SC430. This data is as old as all getout and secondly Mercedes didn't market the E of that day as a BMW fighter nor did they promise a BMW fighter when the 2003 E appeared. Lexus did with the 2006 GS, that is why I use the BMW as a reference when talking about the GS. The 5-Series is the car that LEXUS said was the competitor, not the E-Class.
It really looks kinda desperate to me for you to have to go back to the previous car and dig up a bunch of comparos that it most cases it didn't even win! What is the point?
Lexus has stated that BMW was the target, not Mercedes in the middle segment.
Let's agree on this. If you need facts on Lexus success and history, get a hold of me. If I need Mercedes history and success stories, I'll call you, deal?
No dice to that because I didn't give a Lexus history lesson to begin with. I brought up the current GS' sales as my most important point and secondly as to how it has been no threat at all to BMW's 5-Series. All of that is true as can be Doc. Your listing of old comparos in which the Lexus only managed to beat the BMW once and came in 2nd all the other times only proves that the GS during its entire life has never a real threat to BMW! Let me try and pass off a "incredibly close second" placing of a Mercedes to a Lexus as something significant and watch how the circuits go off. A close second doesn't count Doc.
Besides you were the one that was flat out wrong about the C's sales, not once but twice! I wasn't wrong about the GS never having been much of anything for BMW to worry about in either comparos (old or current) and certainly not in sales (not even close there).
Infiniti has done what Lexus said they wanted to do in just the last 3-4 years with the G35 and now the M35/45, build a true BMW competitor, not a half-baked attempt smothered in typical Lexus detachment and luxury.
And pick one bandwagon and stay on it, ok? When your team loses say, we lost, but we'll get you next time! I haven't heard you schill for BMW. You just did it to attack Lexus, which is beneath you.
Oh I'm on the Germancar team, with MB being the marquee brand. I usually don't have to go to bat for BMW because they're hardcore fans are usually lurking, but I just couldn't resist in raking the Lexusfans over the coals about all the boasting done about the GS this time last year. I have no idea as to what you're talking about with "we'll get you next time". That is a GM apologist line, you know that. What was beneath you was to come and rag on the C-Class for no good reason and then to consistantly get the sales numbers wrong. I wasn't "wrong" about anything here Doc, the GS' record both past and current against the 5-Series in both sales and comparo speaks for itself. It all points out that BMW has nothing to worry about from Lexus' GS.
May 20, 2006 (12:49 pm)
Edit: In further reading of the entire last page of posts it was one yours that said that about the GS. Whew, I didn't think I said anything like that having actually liked driving the GS430 last year!