Last post on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:55 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar XJ-Series, Lexus LS 460, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Volkswagen Phaeton, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz CL-Class, Sedan
Let's try to define this forum as being limited to luxury performance vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k.
A luxury vehicle with a base price of $59k qualifies because it would typically be bought with some additional equipment, bringing the MSRP over $60k.
Vehicles like the E, 5, A6, M, or GS, even if available in certain versions over $60k, don't qualify because they are cars from companies that have higher end cars in their lineups.
#15638 of 24726 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [stevekilburn]
May 18, 2006 (6:42 pm)
Steve, you've got some reading to catch up on. Not only the buff books but also the trade bible, the weekly Automotive News. The reason why Maser isn't selling isn't wheel base. It's the tranny. The auto trans (there is no stick) is awful with mucho slamming and banging. So much so that there are warranty problems and in general much anger. People think they are getting the equivalent of the Continental for a lot less money but this coarseness upsets them.
Moreover, the engine IS from Enzo but it is too peaky with no low end torque. So you have to buzz around at four grand. Did you ever drive home from work after a stressful day at the dental practice at a minimum of 4000 rpms?
Having said all of the above, I wonder what I could pick up a used 2005 Maser for in a couple of years? 60K? Maybe less if interest rates go up a little more and home equity loans dry up.
#15639 of 24726 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [blckislandguy]
May 18, 2006 (9:06 pm)
They definitely have to come up with a conventional autobox before they do anything else. No one wants a $150K LWB super-lux sedan with a SMG.
#15640 of 24726 Re: So I was right! [drfilll]
May 18, 2006 (11:00 pm)
The E320 coupe (not Cabriolet) was around $60k, the price of the current CLK430! I knew it, I knew it!
I'm lost here Doc, where was the debate about what a E320 used to cost back in the day? You mentioning something so totally irrelevant is called a "my points have been blown out of the water" switch of subject.
Now if you're making this claim about the price of the old E320 Coupe as to say that the current CLK500 (the CLK430 went out in 2002 Doc, gotta stay current!) is an evolution of that model then you're way off because the last E320 Coupe was in 1995. Surely the current CLK500 would cost a lot more today if were based on the E-Class chassis and not the C-Class chassis as it currently is. You missed the point by a country mile because the CLK is NOT an evolution of the old W124 E-Class Coupe. That car started out in 1988 as a 300CE and the price was 55-60K in 1988 Doc.
You're just mad because I caught YOU bragging on how the C-Class IS NOT one of the 5 best sellers in the class. Maybe you should check YOUR boasts with a little research!
A little review:
1. You stated that C-Class sells in the 40K range per year and I proved that was wrong with the latest figures from 2004 and 2005.
2. You also stated that the G35, CTS, ES, and TL all double the C-Class' sales. Again you were proven wrong with actual sales numbers YTD.
What I see here now is that your reply has gotten a whole lot shorter because your rag on the C's sales has been proven wrong (with actual facts) at every turn. What would I be "mad" about when I proved you wrong quite easily with the actual sales numbers? Oh and about that top 5 claim I made I said "usually" as in maybe some years, not always Doc. Big difference from your claim about the competition doubling the C-Class sales and then not being able to admit you were wrong about that statement.
And thank you for admitting that sales success is more important than dynamics when it comes to evaluating the relative value of a model, Merc. I'll offer you some cheese with your whine when the ES' sales accelerate again.
Again, another spin. Where in any post did I admit anything. Again this is another twist of the debate.
I mentioned that the current GS' sales are dropping and how it has never sold well and then you mention comparos.
I mentioned that the SC430 sucked in comparos, losing every single one of them usually placing last or next to last and then you mention sales numbers.
See the twist and spin there. You simply use sales or comparos where possible to defend whichever Lexus is being talked about. Now tell me where in that does that prove which standard is more important than the other?
Give it up Doc you've been outdone. Just admit you didn't have a clue as to what the C's actual sales numbers were before you threw out the "double" and "40K per year" assumpitions.
#15641 of 24726 Re: So I was right! [merc1]
May 19, 2006 (7:04 am)
I recently read a Sports Car International comparo of the 330i, C350, IS350, and G35. The cars placed in that order. C&D did also mention in their review of the C350 that if it had been available for their entry-lux comparo, it would've been in the top 3. Pretty impressive considering that the C is a grandpa compared to the 3 and IS.
#15642 of 24726 Re: Should maserati introduce quattroporte ROYALE [blckislandguy]
May 19, 2006 (9:17 am)
The reason why Maser isn't selling isn't wheel base. It's the tranny. The auto trans (there is no stick) is awful with mucho slamming and banging. So much so that there are warranty problems and in general much anger.
I am under the impression that the '07 model year (or in '07 calendar year) will correct this tranny issue . . . finally. Can you confirm this?
This will improve an already amazing vehicle, IMO, if true.
May 19, 2006 (4:43 pm)
You were right about C-Class sales. Ok! I missed that one. It sells much more than I thought.
But you are also guilty of lack of research, and saying without knowing!
You seem to like to pick on the GS, as I do the C-Class. For some reason you are quick to jump on BMW's bandwagon, while the E-Class gets passed over easily in comparisons, like it's bretheren, the C-Class (but that's discussion in another post).
You seemed to pick on the Lexus interior, and mentioned it is "Good in a straight line".
Regarding the BMW 540i vs the Lexus GS, and I quote:
Save for it's compacted rear seat, the GS400's interior also received high marks, centered on the ergonaomically-friendly IP; and the backlit, sliver-blue-tinted instruments that automatically adjust to ambient light.
Added to these appealing features is a sticker price of $50,347, the lowest of the group, and more than $5k less than the winning BMW. Based on such numbers (lower price, better skidpad numbers, better braking, better top speed, better economy at 24MPG, slower in 60 and quarter by .10 seconds), one could certainly question the Gs' second place finish.
Suffice it to say that a one-point seperation on scores might be considered a tie. The GS is that good!
Car & Driver, Nov. 1998
Other significant facts:
GS earns C&D "10 Best" in 1999.
GS beats Mercedes & BMW in MT comparison in that year.
GS suffers another incredibly close second in R&T the next year.
Mercedes is beaten every time by Lexus, in performance, and price.
Let's agree on this. If you need facts on Lexus success and history, get a hold of me. If I need Mercedes history and success stories, I'll call you, deal?
And pick one bandwagon and stay on it, ok? When your team loses say, we lost, but we'll get you next time! I haven't heard you schill for BMW. You just did it to attack Lexus, which is beneath you.
You're on a good team, stick with 'em! They'll turn it around, LOL!!
May 19, 2006 (5:34 pm)
You got the love! Congrats on comin' aboard The Real Love Boat! You defintely know what's up! You really care about the Future of Lexus!
You're a good man! I trust you'll get on board soon enough. I believe in you, I don't care what they say about you!
#15645 of 24726 Re: Merc [drfill]
May 19, 2006 (8:43 pm)
You seemed to pick on the Lexus interior, and mentioned it is "Good in a straight line".
Actually, that was me. Quoting myself: The V8 was very fast in a straight line, but handling was just average, and it had the all-time worst Lexus interior.
There's a big difference between objective and subjective results on a car. The GS might be able to match the numbers, but it "felt" sloppy compared to the 540, espeically w/ sport package. I think you'll find that most journalists would agree with that.
I didnt have any problems with the audio and HVAC controls, Lexus always has done those in a very simple and straightfoward manner, and the GS was no exception. The problem was the rest of the interior. The design was incredibly dull, and it did not befit a $50K luxury car. Nearly all of it was either plastic or vinyl. It is definitely the hands down winner for worst Lexus interior. The 5 series and especially the A6 were vastly superior on the inside, in both design and materials. I feel rather strange defending the Germans, but despite the GS's reliability and its 0-60 prowess, the 5 and A6 were just better cars than the last gen GS.
Looking at the three of them, its amazing just how brilliant that A6 interior was. The E430, GS400, and 540i interiors all look quite dated now, but the A6 looks just as sleek and modern now as it did then.
May 19, 2006 (10:11 pm)
My bad! It was you, wasn't it! I must still be very ill.
I expect that from Merc, I expect better from you, LG!
All I can say to your post is 3 major US mags disagree with you. They all came away quite fond of the GS, without qualifiers.
I have NEVER seen a BMW interior that I would consider even decent. This picture verifies that. Mags coined the phrase "austere" when describing BMW interiors!
Audi makes great interiors. BMW makes great driving machines. These are their strengths.
When BMW makes a good, not great, interior, please post a picture! Something a step up from an Accord would be nice, for openers.
Until then.....I'm trying to eat here!
Merc is officially in the clear.
#15647 of 24726 Re: Wow! [drfill]
May 19, 2006 (10:55 pm)
They may have disagreed in '98 or '99, but as I said before, once the A6 received actual horsepower, it was all over for GS as far as the mags were concerned. The '06 GS is the best one yet, but it still has the same fundamental problem that has been plauging the car since 1993. Lexus keeps over promising and under delivering with an akward car that has to find a small niche between the ES and LS.
In fairness to BMW, that picture was not the most flattering I could find, but it fit the size and angle requirements to fit with the others. Here is a much better one, along with a similar GS photo:
While the previous 5 was hardly my favorite car interior, in my opinion it definitely bests the extremely flat and boring GS interior (CR called it "antiseptic"), which could easily have come from Accord town.